Are HDMI out and SDI out working simultaneously?

Alister Chapman · January 5th, 2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giuseppe Pugliese

That is only because it was a pre-production model and they do not know yet if they will both work at the same time, they are still developing it.

I doubt very much that there are any hardware developments on the basic unit still going on. It takes months to develop a chipset and put it in to production, the cameras are due to be at the dealers in early Feb, just a few weeks away. The hardware development would have been finalised months ago, probably prior to the manufacture of the pre production cameras, as a rule it's only small firmware changes that get made between pre-production and delivery. I expect production has already started as Sony have a long QA process that the first units must pass before release to the dealers. So I'm pretty sure Sony do know exactly what the output options will be. It's more likely that the people at the meeting either know the answer but won't say or most likely simply don't know the correct answer themselves.

I'd place money on it being one or the other, just like the EX1R, PMW-320, PMW-350 as from what I've heard they share many common components. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

Giuseppe Pugliese · January 6th, 2011, 02:09 PM

It seems like the HDMI and HD-SDI working at the same time is not a hardware issue but software, there for its still within their time frame to update. They can also introduce firmware updates later down the line just like Arri and RED are doing.

Alister Chapman · January 6th, 2011, 02:37 PM

If the hardware to provide simultaneous HDMI and SDI signals is not present, all the firmware in the world won't change that situation. While modern FPGA's are highly programmable, if they don't have enough of the right logic blocks then all the firmware in the world won't help. Typically specialist I/O functions such as SDI and HDMI require dedicated hardware.

We will have to wait and see. I still say Sony know what the production cameras will be able to do, they might still be writing and de-bugging the launch version of the firmware, although this close to launch I doubt even that, right now they are probably working on the next firmware release. I'm quite sure the engineers know what the hardware that they chose to use is capable of. I don't buy that they don't know whether it will work or not, it either has the capability to do it or not.

Tony Partamian · January 6th, 2011, 04:14 PM

Well i hope it's a software upgrade issue.
Imagine a company offering a great HDMI viewfinder soon...you'll loose the sdi out??

What about the dual link sdi, they should have different circuitry and they are not inherited from the EX1
Can't we just use it as single link?

Bruce Schultz · January 7th, 2011, 08:07 AM

It is a single link - 3G. The data rate on 4:4:4 is just under 3Gbs so they are utilizing the 3G technology to put the entire signal out on one bnc connector.

Also, the R1 recorder will have the capability to record simultaneous dual 4:4:4 outputs which is an unbelievably great benefit for future F3 3D users.

Matt Gottshalk · January 7th, 2011, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Partamian

Well i hope it's a software upgrade issue.
Imagine a company offering a great HDMI viewfinder soon...you'll loose the sdi out??

There is such a company:

I am currently using it on my AF-100 HDMI out, while simultaneously sending the HD-SDI out to the client monitor.

Alister Chapman · January 8th, 2011, 09:02 AM

What's the resolution and colour accuracy of the Cineroid like.

EDIT: OK I found the resolution 800x480.. but is that RGB pixels or actual resolution in which case actual resolution somewhat below that required for HD focus IMHO. I assume it is the pixel count. I'd have to see one in the flesh first. The EX/F3 LCD is 1920x480.

Andy Shipsides · January 8th, 2011, 09:24 AM

I have been playing with the Cineroid EVF for the last couple of days, mostly on the AF100. I really like the look of the screen and menu functions. The screen has a resolution of 800x480, which looks great when the diopter is up. With the diopter down you can start to see the individual pixels, but it is very easy to pull focus with. I would like if they offered a less magnification diopter, you end up looking around the screen a bit like being too close to the tv. The diopter is well made though.

We just started selling this - Cineroid Electronic Viewfinder (EVF) :: LCD Screen Accessories :: HDSLR Accessories :: Camera Accessories :: Equipment Sales :: Abel Cine Tech

The product manager from Sony did suggest that it might be possible to get both SDI and HDMI output live at the same time. No promises though.

Matt Gottshalk · January 8th, 2011, 10:25 AM

800x400.

It is plenty enough resolution for critical image evaluation, especially with the 1:1 pixel feature.

I love mine.

Alister Chapman · January 8th, 2011, 11:04 AM

So it sounds like it's 800x480 RGB pixel sets as opposed to 800x480 individual pixels. Sounds like it's going to be worth a serious look. The price is certainly good.

Ron Wilk · January 9th, 2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

What's the resolution and colour accuracy of the Cineroid like.

EDIT: OK I found the resolution 800x480.. but is that RGB pixels or actual resolution in which case actual resolution somewhat below that required for HD focus IMHO. I assume it is the pixel count. I'd have to see one in the flesh first. The EX/F3 LCD is 1920x480.

I have heard numerous complaints in re the usability of the soon-to-be released F3's EVF. At the same time, several reviewers have lauded the utility of the aforementioned Cineroid EVF, which appears to have a lower degree of resolution. If that is indeed the case, what are the inherent problems with the F3's VF?

Additionally, if the Cineroid device proves to be more effective for pulling focus than the F3's native VF, given that it requires an HDMI input, along with the possibility that the production F3s may not allow for simultaneous output from both the SDI and HDMI ports, it would seem that use of this EVF would negate one's ability to use an external recording device.

James Houk · January 9th, 2011, 01:47 PM

There does seem to be some occasional confusion about the EVF/LCD.

From my experience with the EX1 and EX3, the LCDs are excellent for the price range of those cameras - but the EVF on the EX1 is awful.

That said - I have heard some people stating that the EVF used on the pre-production PMW-F3 cameras is not the one planned for the final cameras.

However, I believe that the placement of the EVF on the F3 just isn't practical. I don't see people frequently holding the camera in such a manner that it makes sense to use the EVF at the rear of the camera.

It may, for some users be sufficient to use an aftermarket diopter to make the flip out LCD similar to the EX3. However, I'm hearing some operators who don't feel the placement would be optimal, hence an external solution like the Cineroid.

Regarding the Cineroid and outputs - if you did use the Nanoflash you would have both an HDMI and an HD-SDI output, regardless of which you used for input.

Therefore, you could route the HD-SDI from the camera to the Nanoflash, then send Nanoflash HDMI to the Cineroid, and send Nanoflash HD-SDI out to Video Village or producer monitor.

Of course, the Nanoflash only is 8bit...but that's a different conversation.

Alister Chapman · January 9th, 2011, 01:54 PM

The Cineroid has HDMI pass thru.

The EVF's that I have seen on the F3 appear to be the same as the ones on the EX1R which is a big improvement over the EX1 EVF, however it is still tiny.

The benefit that I see in the Cineroid is that you can place it wherever you want, including the traditional VF location just in front of the body and above the rear of the lens. If you use the F3 LCD then you must be behind the camera body, so shoulder mounting is not as easy.

In many situations I think the F3 LCD will be adequate, especially with a 3rd party loupe, for example on a tripod with the LCD tilted upwards and viewed from above.

Ron Wilk · January 9th, 2011, 03:28 PM

Thank you both for your replies.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the EVF is like on the shipping version of the F3. Like many others, I have one on order as well.

In regards to an outboard recorder, I am aware of the Nano's active outputs but I'm considering one of the alternatives, i.e. AJA, primarily for the 10 bit ProRes codec. That said, aside from the nuisance and inconvenience of extra wiring, I do not know if the AJA products (Mini and or AJA Pro) offer simultaneously active SDI and HDMI outputs--will have to check into that.

Thanks again.

Addendum: Looks like the Ki Pro does offer an active HDMI output ... not sure about the long awaited Mini.

Leonard Levy · January 9th, 2011, 06:44 PM

I didn't use or like most of the shoulder mt adapters for the Ex or the HVX for that matter - preferring to simply use a monopod with a tilt head lodged in a fannypack on my waist.
With that kind of a set-up do you think the position of the LDC would be easier to use with something like a hoodman diopter?

I also noticed that the microphone is still protruding well in front of the camera. With a short lens could that continue to get in the way of the mattebox like it does on the EX-1?

January 6th, 2011, 02:37 PM	#18
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	If the hardware to provide simultaneous HDMI and SDI signals is not present, all the firmware in the world won't change that situation. While modern FPGA's are highly programmable, if they don't have enough of the right logic blocks then all the firmware in the world won't help. Typically specialist I/O functions such as SDI and HDMI require dedicated hardware. We will have to wait and see. I still say Sony know what the production cameras will be able to do, they might still be writing and de-bugging the launch version of the firmware, although this close to launch I doubt even that, right now they are probably working on the next firmware release. I'm quite sure the engineers know what the hardware that they chose to use is capable of. I don't buy that they don't know whether it will work or not, it either has the capability to do it or not. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

January 8th, 2011, 09:02 AM	#22
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	What's the resolution and colour accuracy of the Cineroid like. EDIT: OK I found the resolution 800x480.. but is that RGB pixels or actual resolution in which case actual resolution somewhat below that required for HD focus IMHO. I assume it is the pixel count. I'd have to see one in the flesh first. The EX/F3 LCD is 1920x480. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

January 8th, 2011, 09:24 AM	#23
Andy Shipsides Sponsor: Abel CineTech Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: New York, NY Posts: 361	I have been playing with the Cineroid EVF for the last couple of days, mostly on the AF100. I really like the look of the screen and menu functions. The screen has a resolution of 800x480, which looks great when the diopter is up. With the diopter down you can start to see the individual pixels, but it is very easy to pull focus with. I would like if they offered a less magnification diopter, you end up looking around the screen a bit like being too close to the tv. The diopter is well made though. We just started selling this - Cineroid Electronic Viewfinder (EVF) :: LCD Screen Accessories :: HDSLR Accessories :: Camera Accessories :: Equipment Sales :: Abel Cine Tech The product manager from Sony did suggest that it might be possible to get both SDI and HDMI output live at the same time. No promises though. __________________ Andy Shipsides -Camera Technology Specialist AbelCineTech, New York - Visit our Blog - http://blog.abelcine.com

January 8th, 2011, 11:04 AM	#25
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	So it sounds like it's 800x480 RGB pixel sets as opposed to 800x480 individual pixels. Sounds like it's going to be worth a serious look. The price is certainly good. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

January 9th, 2011, 01:47 PM	#27
James Houk Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 78	Evf/lcd There does seem to be some occasional confusion about the EVF/LCD. From my experience with the EX1 and EX3, the LCDs are excellent for the price range of those cameras - but the EVF on the EX1 is awful. That said - I have heard some people stating that the EVF used on the pre-production PMW-F3 cameras is not the one planned for the final cameras. However, I believe that the placement of the EVF on the F3 just isn't practical. I don't see people frequently holding the camera in such a manner that it makes sense to use the EVF at the rear of the camera. It may, for some users be sufficient to use an aftermarket diopter to make the flip out LCD similar to the EX3. However, I'm hearing some operators who don't feel the placement would be optimal, hence an external solution like the Cineroid. Regarding the Cineroid and outputs - if you did use the Nanoflash you would have both an HDMI and an HD-SDI output, regardless of which you used for input. Therefore, you could route the HD-SDI from the camera to the Nanoflash, then send Nanoflash HDMI to the Cineroid, and send Nanoflash HD-SDI out to Video Village or producer monitor. Of course, the Nanoflash only is 8bit...but that's a different conversation.

January 6th, 2011, 02:09 PM	#17
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	It seems like the HDMI and HD-SDI working at the same time is not a hardware issue but software, there for its still within their time frame to update. They can also introduce firmware updates later down the line just like Arri and RED are doing.

January 6th, 2011, 04:14 PM	#19
Tony Partamian Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lebanon Posts: 51	Well i hope it's a software upgrade issue. Imagine a company offering a great HDMI viewfinder soon...you'll loose the sdi out?? What about the dual link sdi, they should have different circuitry and they are not inherited from the EX1 Can't we just use it as single link?

January 7th, 2011, 08:07 AM	#20
Bruce Schultz Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Malibu, CA Posts: 480	It is a single link - 3G. The data rate on 4:4:4 is just under 3Gbs so they are utilizing the 3G technology to put the entire signal out on one bnc connector. Also, the R1 recorder will have the capability to record simultaneous dual 4:4:4 outputs which is an unbelievably great benefit for future F3 3D users.

January 8th, 2011, 10:25 AM	#24
Matt Gottshalk Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Potomac Falls, VA Posts: 215	800x400. It is plenty enough resolution for critical image evaluation, especially with the 1:1 pixel feature. I love mine.

January 9th, 2011, 01:54 PM	#28
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	The Cineroid has HDMI pass thru. The EVF's that I have seen on the F3 appear to be the same as the ones on the EX1R which is a big improvement over the EX1 EVF, however it is still tiny. The benefit that I see in the Cineroid is that you can place it wherever you want, including the traditional VF location just in front of the body and above the rear of the lens. If you use the F3 LCD then you must be behind the camera body, so shoulder mounting is not as easy. In many situations I think the F3 LCD will be adequate, especially with a 3rd party loupe, for example on a tripod with the LCD tilted upwards and viewed from above. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

January 9th, 2011, 03:28 PM	#29
Ron Wilk Major Player Join Date: May 2009 Location: Parkland Florida Posts: 407	Thank you both for your replies. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the EVF is like on the shipping version of the F3. Like many others, I have one on order as well. In regards to an outboard recorder, I am aware of the Nano's active outputs but I'm considering one of the alternatives, i.e. AJA, primarily for the 10 bit ProRes codec. That said, aside from the nuisance and inconvenience of extra wiring, I do not know if the AJA products (Mini and or AJA Pro) offer simultaneously active SDI and HDMI outputs--will have to check into that. Thanks again. Addendum: Looks like the Ki Pro does offer an active HDMI output ... not sure about the long awaited Mini.

January 9th, 2011, 06:44 PM	#30
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	I didn't use or like most of the shoulder mt adapters for the Ex or the HVX for that matter - preferring to simply use a monopod with a tilt head lodged in a fannypack on my waist. With that kind of a set-up do you think the position of the LDC would be easier to use with something like a hoodman diopter? I also noticed that the microphone is still protruding well in front of the camera. With a short lens could that continue to get in the way of the mattebox like it does on the EX-1?