Sony F3 vs RED?

[Graeme Nattress]

I just noticed that the point I wanted to make and missed was that 4:2:2 is not a "colour space", although often referred to as one.

"If the source isn't up to it, 4:4:4 potentially brings no advantage over 4:2:2" - I know exactly what you mean here, but it's still a problematic statement because 4:2:2 is a chroma sub-sampling scheme rather than a quality statement. What you would do in this case is encode the same signal via different chroma subsamplings and then reconstruct them all back up to 4:4:4 and compare back to the original RGB. You'd then know which chroma sub-samplings would show in as a lower quality and which would not.

If we think of an HD camera image, it's colour space is REC709, and that is based on the RGB colour model, and it can be encoded as Y'CbCr which may use a 4:2:2 chroma sub-sampling.

With mapping between RGB and Y'CbCbr encodings, there can be a loss of precision due to rounding of code values. There are also many Y'CbCr code values that don't map to valid RGB values, so you can get in the situation where if you start with an RGB encoded image and adjust it in Y'CbCr you may find that some of the adjusted values map back to invalid RGB values which would probably get clamped. If you keep it un-clamped floating point all the way, you can transform back and forth quite freely though.

"RGB itself is a color space with unlimited gamut." no idea what you mean here.

Graeme

[Alister Chapman]

If you have your xyz axis representing RGB and these go from zero to an infinite amount of R, G and B then the gamut range is infinite. So the basic undefined RGB color space has unlimited gamut. All the defined color spaces are then contained within this unlimited gamut.

[Graeme Nattress]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

If you have your xyz axis representing RGB and these go from zero to an infinite amount of R, G and B then the gamut range is infinite. So the basic undefined RGB color space has unlimited gamut. All the defined color spaces are then contained within this unlimited gamut.

So yes, if you do that you can have an unlimited amount of RGB code values, however, that doesn't give you an infinite gamut. The gamut is constrained by the representation of the RGB primaries in xy, which is finite. Of course, you can define arbitrarily "way out" primaries, but I don't see that as a practical consideration. If you've not defined the RGB space, "basic undefined RGB color space", then you don't have a colour space and don't have any gamut. The code values of the RGB only become colours when you define what they mean in terms of the primaries.

Graeme

[Steve Cocklin]

Originally Posted by Leon Lorenz

Does anyone know if the F3 will be 100% content approved by broadcasters like the BBC and National Geographic

I just found out that no the F3 is not 100% content approved by the BBC and National Geographic; for more information read this blog; http://dylanreeve.com/videotv/high-d...is-not-hd.html

[Jim Tittle]

To meet their specs, all you'd have to do is add a KiPro Mini or something similar. There's no mention of it in their specs, but I'm assuming that the BBC requires you to use a lens, too. (Not included with the F3).

[Andrew Stone]

Originally Posted by Steve Cocklin

I just found out that no the F3 is not 100% content approved by the BBC and National Geographic; for more information read this blog; Sony F3 is not HD | Edit Geek

Hi Steve,

Welcome to DVinfo. You will find that a good number of the people here who use XDCAM based cameras already own an outboard recorder that does over 50 mbit 422 capture, most notably Convergent Design's nanoFlash unit. As such, this is not an issue for those of us with a nanoFlash or similar device.

There is a forum dedicated to the NanoFlash and the soon to be Gemini 444 uncompressed data recorder and you will find lots of information on these sprinkled throughout the this F3 forum and the EX1/EX3 forum here on DVinfo.

[Brian Drysdale]

Sony regard the on board recording as a proxy, they intend you to use an external recorder for the master recording.

Alan Roberts puts BBC camera settings in his assessment: http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/pdf/...ony_PMW-F3.pdf

[Sophie Bucks]

Originally Posted by Steve Cocklin

I just found out that no the F3 is not 100% content approved by the BBC and National Geographic; for more information read this blog; Sony F3 is not HD | Edit Geek

Hiya I think you need to by a Nanoflash or similar the your sorted for the BEEB

[Giuseppe Pugliese]

to kinda bring back the topic to the question F3 vs RED....


I just got back from a shoot in Africa... We would have never been able to get our film shot on budget and on time if we were shooting with the RED system. The F3 did NOT over heat. In fact, I tried to make it overheat... We were shooting in 110 degree weather. I left the camera out in the sun with no cover for hours while rolling... I never once got an error or heat issue. That would have never happened with the RED camera.... Also the simple ease of backing up on set was much quicker and needed way less harddrive space to achieve.

If I had picked the RED system over the F3, we just never would have made our days in that heat, under those conditions. I was in the most testing environments with that camera, and never once did the camera tell me "nope I dont wanna work". I was shocked, and I would love to see what it DOES take to overheat that camera... African tropical weather and heat, with dust and rain and super high precipitation. It make feel plasticy, but it sure did handle the beating for a full month of shooting.

[Thierry Humeau]

The F3 specs say 0°C to +40°C (+32°F to +104°F). I am pretty confident you can extend that range by 10% without worrying. As a matter of fact, in March, we were shooting at -20F in Yellowstone with a PMW-350 that is also rated at 0°C to +40°C (+32°F to +104°F) and had no problem at all.

Thierry.

[Steve Kalle]

Is overheating really an issue with current Red cameras such as Red One MX or Epic? I thought I had read about these issues with the first Red One model but Red fixed most or all issues with the MX model. Yes, no?

On the flip side, I really can't believe most of what I read on the net these days due to the rabid fanboy-ism. There are a few individuals I trust to tell the truth but even they succumb to the hype occasionally.

However, something that drives me bonkers is a manufacturer dedicating an entire forum to the first 100 or so owners of a piece of equipment such as the forum with a separate thread for each Epic owner. Really?! I mean, come on! And then there are numerous people praising and envying those owners. It looks to me like Red took a page from the Apple playbook - ie, make a product and create crazy hype around it. I thought the Reality Distortion Field was strong with Apple but Red's RDF is impenetrable.

To be honest, my biggest annoyance is all the 'Resolution is King' and nothing else matters mentality. I guess the most successful film looked like crap - Avatar because it was shot on small-3-chip-1080p cameras. To top it off, it was projected in IMAX and looked stunning!

Ok. My diatribe is over.

Now, about the F3 vs Red. The Red Epic is an amazing little camera and its light weight and small size allow huge cost savings in support gear from lower cost Steadicams to smaller jibs, cranes, tripods, etc...

For high-budget films and TVCs, if you can't afford the Alexa, then a Red is the best choice. However, if a DIT station is not in the budget, the F3 fits better in the overall workflow.

I still want to know what is better: the raw R3D format or 444 S-Log. Seeing as you must spend about $10,000 minimum for 444 S-Log recording (when Gemini is released), the total cost of ownership for both cameras is not very different.

For those looking to buy, I think the way Red has handled its customers is a big plus, ie., original Red One owners were offered great incentives for the updated MX version. I haven't seen Sony do anything like that for its customers.

One last quick point: Red does not have ND filters built-in and it has become evident that many many people want NDs built into the camera (thanks to the FS100).

No matter what, BOTH cameras produce AMAZING images.

[Giuseppe Pugliese]

Any camera running in high temperatures will overheat, the new RED cameras are still prone to it as I've heard. On set we had 2 7D cameras, they shut down and over heated in a matter of minutes, we couldn't even get the camera mounted in the car, before it over heated.

I really love RED footage, but for me, the Epic is just kinda overkill and too small. My next camera after the F3 will most likely be a used Alexa, unless something better comes out between the F3 and Alexa market... I dont like the way RED handles the workflow or the costumer service for that matter. WAY too much ego and not enough actual help around the world. I know that If I'm shooting in Africa or Asia, I can have support with Sony or Arri... RED... well good luck with that.

When I had an issue with my cards, I called my sony rep in the states, and within a few hours I was getting help from an engineer at Sony UK trying to help get my situation fixed. Thats service.

[David C. Williams]

I've seen one Epic, and it had the noisiest fan I've ever heard on a camera. It slowed to near inaudible when recording, but the fact it had to run so hard when not recording makes for interesting speculation on their usability in hot environments.

[Dennis Dillon]

This thread has the most hits of all the threads on this camera.
I wonder why?

While working for Sony (Sony ICE , Independent DP team member) at the Sony NAB booth, a gentleman who I have never met informed me he was the President of the Red User Group. Sorry, I never took his name down. No disrespect,I literally met hundreds of DP's that week. Im sure if he wishes to add to this he can.

He ask me about the camera and then introduced me to two DP's who are Red users, and wanted to know more about the F3. After a bit of basic technical exchanges regarding the work flow in 709 and S Log, I demonstrated what I think is the most important feature of the F3. Sensitivity, period. After pumping up the gain to 18 and indicated it's ISO 6400 rating, their reactions were nothing but positive after seeing that there was little noise in the image.

Holding a Candle to the Sony PMW-F3 | CineTechnica

We discussed the ability to custom LUTs to the the 35 Mb proxy copy,and how that would ease the post session. We also discussed the RGB 10 bit uncompressed features, and how SR or the many third party non/compressed recorders were about to raise the bar for the common DP.
They told me they were going to buy two F3 for their next Doc. Not saying one was better than the other, only indicating the price point/performance/worklflow level brought them to that decision.

Look, Sony has gone 4K, 65mm with the F65 and has handed down the F35 imager to the rest of us. I'm sure the DSP in the F35 is way ahead of the DSP in the F3 and the FS 100. Of course!!!

They are moving into 4K with a a killer imager. It is 8 K that puts out a 4 K image. Red folks would ask me, Is the F3 imager 4K?,... no it is not, it is 3.5K. But we are talking about a sub 2K image as a standard for today and many years to come, until 4K TV is the norm. The comparison should be how Sony takes their 3.5K image and how Red takes their stated 4K and to produce a sub 2 K image.

I admit I have never shot with a Red One, and was very tempted to drop down the 1k for the first issue. And Im not in the know to the latest Red issue. So please add to this.

But I had to stick by what my then clients and same clients today needed. And the workflow just did not fit with them, so I waited for the next iteration of a single imager.

So Canon drops the 5D on us (An AP request), and many jump on it like fly on sh_t. Sorry Chris H.
Glad to see there were considerably less 5D geeks running around the NAB floor with modified mounts and Zeiss CP attached. I mean really, how can you take that codec and noise level seriously. I would love to hear from the newly ordained 5D DP's, who touted it's low light capabilities (This was all about spending less money on a good LD/Grip and camera package). and see a head to head comparison with the F3 18db ISO 6400 and say the DSLR is still viable. Viable yes if your business plan is 200-400/day for an A camera. Weddings anybody. Not a knock on wedding videographers. We are talking about many notches above that, "I will love you till death" moment.


Say good by to the DSLR period. (see the FS 100, same sensor and less $ after you factor in the extras to meet the feature set of the FS 100).


Argue this, if you have graded your 5D and had 12+ stops to work with, and no noise after 1200 ISO, please send me frame grabs and and the CC log, and I'll eat.... shut up. The F3 has a little noise at 18db/6400 ISO, and you would have to blow it up x2 to see it.

So its down to what your client needs. 8/10/14/16 bit. For now 8 bit is the norm. Tomorrow is another day. Im sure, with all the budget issues facing broadcasters and production facilities, 10 bit/ Log will slowly make its way where 8 bit is today.

Sorry for the rant.

[Jacques Mersereau]

F3 vs RED

Regarding the Digital Cinema System Specification, which calls for a minimum of 2K (2048x1080),
I would like to hear comments about the possibilities of the Sony F3 being able to _output_
a 24pfs or 48fps@2K signal for capture?

I believe RED can do this now.