Sony UK to Announce PMW-F3 at 10am UTC on Facebook

[Brian Drysdale]

The judging by the body size under the red cloth, it looks rather similar to the F3 body without all the lens accessories.

[Rick Presas]

I don't think Sony will be introducing a more affordable version of the F3 at all in the near future.

they already have the NEX-VG10 to appeal to the micro-budget indie market. it has an APSC sensor, and interchangable lenses. it doesn;t shoot at 24p yet, but thats a simple upgrade that can be done via firmware or just in the next VG11 (or whatever they name it).

That pretty much gives Sony their answer to the AF-100 - An HD handicam with interchangable lenses, a large sensor, and AVC codec.

[Craig Seeman]

Rick, the VG10 doesn't even come close to the AF100 for way too many reasons to list here. You really need to compare the features and understand even the very basic needs of a professional who needs to assure quality for client or professional market delivery.

[Rick Presas]

I certainly do. The simple reality of the wide market today is that the low-cost, non-pro featured DSLR cameras have taken a significant slice of the market, even various mainstream television productions have used them. The NEX is essentially a DSLR camera with the form factor of a handicam.

Does it compete in sheer quality to the Af-100? No.

BUT, does it appeal to a large portion of the same market? Definetly.

If you are a Pro, sony already has half a dozen cameras for you, which will soon include the F3. But I wasn't talking about that market at all. I was talking about the micro/no budget independent production market, to which the NEX would appeal to greatly, because it's in the price range and quality bracket of the currently hot HDSLR cameras, but with the form factor of a video camera.

Basically, between the NEX and f3 Sony already has the low/middle and high/middle end markets covered, so I doubt theyre going to introduce a $6k-$10 middle-end camera any time soon. I could be totally wrong about that.

[Dave Elston]

Originally Posted by Rick Presas

I don't think Sony will be introducing a more affordable version of the F3 at all in the near future.

I'm inclined to agree with this assumption. We are still waiting for the real street price for the F3, but I don't think Sony have left enough room in the spec differential to fill what appears likely to be a huge price gap from the AF100. I think the price is really the only variable in terms of market positioning.

There's been a lot of info (but still not enough) to digest this week and perhaps my head is spinning but I'm now starting to come to the conclusion that the spec for the F3 may indicate that Sony have purposefully left 'room for improvement' and might even be considering a step-up model (F5 anyone?) - as they have done with many previous product generations in the past, think...

VX2000->PD150

FX1->Z1

EX1->EX3

... etc.

It fits the Sony product release pattern and in each case the 'lower' model came first by around 6 months.

There are a few important options they still have in reserve, perhaps a full or semi-shoulder mount design with a native SxS 50mb(4:2:2) codec, 1080p60 overcrank and proper 'Pro' or at least 'EX3-style' viewfinder. That alone would be enough to differentiate from the F3. A higher price wouldn't necessarily be as critical/damaging for the current target F3 market but then perhaps they might consider lowering the F3 price to reach a much larger market and allow for the economies of scale to kick-in on the sensor production costs.

I think it all depends how widely (and at what volume) the big TV companies and Production/Rental houses bite into the F3, there is probably a large R&D cost for Sony to claw back against that new sensor, so the initial margin is necessarily high.

I suspect the highest costing single element in the whole camera is that sensor, the useable yield for such a large chunk of silicon must be a tiny fraction compared to even 2/3" sensors (let alone 1/2" or 1/3").

Whether this is the strategy Sony will adopt remains to be seen (as does the lump under that red cloth). As it sits at present, my money would be on an AF100/101 (if I was in the buying mood).
The rest of the market will soon be able to decide for itself.

[Craig Seeman]

Rick, pros on a budget will likely stick with HDSLR IMHO. VG10 doesn't do 24p and even the 30p is actually in 60i. I don't see form factor being an issue because the small handicam form factor of the VG10 doesn't give it much advantage in the Pro market given the Pro support gear available for HDSLR. Having spent a bit of time with the VG10 it has just enough wrong with it to make me still want to get an HDSLR such as a Canon 60D.

I think the VG10 is yet another example, that if Sony made just a few minor changes it would be a GREAT alternative to HDSLR. As it is it brings over the same problems and adds a few more unfortunately.

[Craig Seeman]

Dave is correct in that AFIK going back many years, Sony always releases the bottom model first.

One can hope for an F1 but that would be against past history. One might say it's odd that they used F3 as the starting number in a model series though.

[Dave Elston]

If there is an F1 in the works, coming in at $6~8K ballpark, I think it is more likely to resemble an 'upgraded VG10' than a 'downgraded F3' - at least as far as the sensor technology is concerned... ie, using APS-C not S35.

As such it might be a bit of an oddball in the lineup but I think it would probably suit many just fine, and would probably get some AF100 pre-order folk twitching.

The fundamental sensor quality differential would also allow Sony to justify that extra ($8-10K) premium for the F3 - for those pros that really need (and can afford) true S35 (+PL mount lenses) with all the extra sensitivity, enhanced DR and low noise floor that is promised.

[Craig Seeman]

APS-C without the line skipping/pixel binning or otherwise adding really good low pass filtering would work. The VG10 does not solve the HDSLR issue. I suspect the AF100 does even if it's just good low pass filtering but I understand that they may be doing better than that. Jan C. said they are NOT using the G1, G2 sensor even though it's 4/3.

[Andrew Stone]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

It takes money to make money, and this is the kind of equipment that can vault you into a new level of production. Don't assume you can't make a camera like the F3 make you a ton of money if you learn to master it... Don't make the mistake of not investing in gear that will make you money. The gear comes first, and then the money second. That is the truth. Too money people don't recognize that you must have the right tools for the trade or you'll never advance.

I concur. People have to put the effort and focus into driving their business into clients that are higher up in the ecosystem. I see a lot of responses to the camera that are indicative of people who are not thinking this way and that is their prerogative. I will say this with the market getting more saturated with entrants into the production end of things that are producing things on a shoestring and feeding off of the lower echelon of the business are going to find it increasingly hard to make a buck. We have seen repeatedly as each creative industry has gone through a process of going digital. We saw it begin in the print industry, we saw it in the photography biz and we have seen it in the video biz. Each one is just on a different trajectory. Video is the last due to the massive processing requirements necessary at the lower end of the computing spectrum...

You have to differentiate yourself into unique markets with a value proposition that puts you into a good market that allows you to get good clients, where turnaround is quick due to either handing off material to a some poor editor or a workflow that is nice and quick and the ability to deliver a superior product and makes the client money. A camera is part of the equation. A small part but if you can fit it into your plan where it get's you up a few levels then go for it.

I plan to but I still think Sony is mishandling their marketing of this camera but playing both sides of the fence and not being clear on how this fits into the various workflows their customer base has, hence the hullabaloo over the camera and price point.

Doug, I saw in another thread where there was an inference to trading up from an EX3. Do you plan to use the F3 in place of an EX3 or in place of your ENG cams? I haven't had enough experience with shallow depth of field cameras to know if I would be able to throw out the DOF enough to do ENG style shooting with the F3. My thought was to have at least one EX cam on a shoot and the F3 for either A or B cam depending on the nature of gig.

EDIT:

When I said "ENG style", I should have called it run & gun shooting, be it with EX cams or the shoulder mount ENG variety.

[Alister Chapman]

A few extra bits of info that I have about the F3.

The sensor (23.6mm x 13.5mm) uses a square bayer pattern, it is:

Gb B
R Gr

So nothing revolutionary there. The 63db noise figure is for standard gammas and hypergammas. If you use S-Log the noise figure drops to a still quite respectable 57db. The sensitivity is very impressive and the on screen noise is extremely hard to see. The footage that I have seen from the F3 looks beautiful and really looks like material from an F35.
It has many of the F35's advanced features including the ability to shoot S-Log and then apply a LUT to the 4:2:2 output for location preview. In addition you will be able to output S-Log over dual link 4:4:4 while recording 35Mb/s mpeg with the LUT applied internally, thus acting as a kind of proxy file.
As well as the 4:4:4 dual link option there will be a 3D link option allowing you to link two F3's together with, as I understand it, one F3 controlling the other so that gain settings etc are matched. In addition the F3 can be controlled by a RMB type remote control panel.
It's fairly power hungry at 24w so a BPU-60 will only last around an hour compared to the 4 hours that EX1 users are used to. The camera will not come with any batteries or charger when you buy it.
The rear viewfinder appears to be the one from the EX1R.
With the PL mount removed the camera has a proprietary mount with a 14 pin hot shoe called the "F" mount. This has a vey short flange back, so it should be possible for 3rd parties to make adapters for DSLR lenses that fit this new mount.

Those thinking or hoping that we may see a 4:4:4 Ki-Pro Mini had should consider just how much data is required to record 4:4:4. Compact flash cards are not going to be up to the job, which is why Sony developed the new "SR Pak" recording media and SR Memory Field recorder which I believe can be used in a kind of clip-on configuration.

I should be getting my hands on an F3 at Interbee next week, if not I'll certainly have some time on one the week after in Oslo at the Sony Creatology event. I'll try to shoot some footage for all to see.

I'm probably going to get a pair for my 3D productions, provided I can get a lens adapter made for Nikon lenses.

[Craig Seeman]

Andrew, maybe my response is more appropriate to a business forum but . . .

Sure one always wants to up sell clients but the F3 seems geared to episodic TV. People in that budget range doing ENG work are going to look for a shoulder mount, fast setup, good codec camera. The PMW-500 which can use 50mbps 4:2;2 to SxS is an example.

The camera F3 is a non starter for corporate work unless your client is Fortunate 100 client with money to burn on a project.

It's a down economy and I don't see business spending more for that when the can get "good enough" with AF100 if they need shallow DOF.

Low budget HDSLR, with all its problems has already creeped in to some higher end productions. They might jump to an AF100 if it solves the problems but one you fully kit out the F3 so it takes advantage of its features, it's in a very different price class.

Otherwise you're looking at comparing features from PMW-350 2/3" chips, PMW-500 2/3" chips with 50mbps 4:2:2, F3 large sensor and 35mbps 4:2:0, AF100 for a lower budget large sensor solution.
You really have to have a specific selling point for the F3 to lead. F3 is for broadcast work were Shallow DOF is more important than ENG. If that's where you're headed with your client base than go for it. Purchases should be built around sensible business models. I can think of very few situations where the up sell to an F3 works outside of broadcast works financially.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

A few extra bits of info that I have about the F3.

The sensor (23.6mm x 13.5mm) uses a square bayer pattern, it is:

Gb B
R Gr

Alister, do you have any information about the number of pixels on the chip, as well as the pattern?

[Alister Chapman]

I have no information on the pixel count. The pattern though is alternate lines of
Gb B Gb B Gb B Gb B and
R Gr R Gr R Gr R Gr according to the information I have.

[David Heath]

The relevance really comes when you start to talk about 4:4:4. That implies equal R,G,B resolutions, and all equal or more than the system resolution. In which case you need at least 1920x1080 pixels of each colour, so for Bayer an 8 megapixel sensor (4 meg of green, 2meg each of red and blue). A lower res sensor would still give good 1920x1080 luminance resolution - but it wouldn't be true 4:4:4.