Realistic card options with the PXW-Z280?

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by David Anderson

Maybe Doug Jensen can step in and help us?

Sorry, I'm not about to offer any advice or speculation on any cards or adapters that I have not used myself.
If you want to be 100% assured of flawless recording 100% if the time . . . then use nothing but genuine SxS cards.

However, if someone is under the impression that they can save money by using other media, and they think they have found a cost-effective alternative, my advice is to set the Z280 for 4K XAVC-I @ 60 fps, aim it at a TV screen that is playing a sports program (lots of action for the codec to compress), and let it record until the card fills up. If it doesn't crap out, then odds are very good the card/adapter combination will probably be reliable all the time. In my experience, if a card/adapter passes this test it won't suddenly crap out some other time. Either it works or it doesn't. But don't blame be if you lose footage! :-)

I probably already said someplace on this thread, don't buy a high-performance car and then complain you have to buy premium gas to make it run right. If you can't afford the fuel, you can't afford the car. Especially true about media because you only need to buy it once. Buy 'em once and then enjoy peace of mind.

[David Anderson]

It's frustrating that Sony has abandoned SxS cards and moving to XQD in virtually every application. I agree with you about being able to afford the car and the gas but I also don't like investing in technology that is going to be obsolete with a camera when there are adapter options out there.

Most of my stuff is done live and switched into a broadcast application and recorded on ISO decks in Prores anyways. I just use the footage on the card as a backup.

It appears the camera will record at any rate with an adapter and XQD cards according to the updated owners manual but it seems like Sony is forcing you to go to SxS or bust especially by discontinuing the adapter which is quite frustrating.

My plan is to purchase the Genuine Sony adapter for 300.00 and the 70.00 adapter from Ali Express and take them apart to compare the circuitry. Then I will buy the Sony XQD cards and do the recording tests as you suggest and report back the results. If the 70.00 adapters prove to be a solid solution I can make a recommendation back and the people of this community have a solid solution going forward.

Since I do have your attention (BTW - I purchased your master class for the ZX280) - can you speak to why the camera performs worse in low light in 4k vs HD mode?

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my questions.

Best,

David

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Sorry, I'm not about to offer any advice or speculation on any cards or adapters that I have not used myself.
If you want to be 100% assured of flawless recording 100% if the time . . . then use nothing but genuine SxS cards.

However, if someone is under the impression that they can save money by using other media, and they think they have found a cost-effective alternative, my advice is to set the Z280 for 4K XAVC-I @ 60 fps, aim it at a TV screen that is playing a sports program (lots of action for the codec to compress), and let it record until the card fills up. If it doesn't crap out, then odds are very good the card/adapter combination will probably be reliable all the time. In my experience, if a card/adapter passes this test it won't suddenly crap out some other time. Either it works or it doesn't. But don't blame be if you lose footage! :-)

I probably already said someplace on this thread, don't buy a high-performance car and then complain you have to buy premium gas to make it run right. If you can't afford the fuel, you can't afford the car. Especially true about media because you only need to buy it once. Buy 'em once and then enjoy peace of mind.

[David Anderson]

Just curious as to what XQD card reader you recommend.

Thanks,

David

Originally Posted by Christopher Young

Seriously if you are working in daily HD broadcast situations just use XAVC-L. That's all I use in 95% of cases for broadcast. Miles more space on the cards. You can use much lower-rated cards and as Doug has said in the past visually for 99.9% of most material you won't see the difference. The only time I use XAVC-I is if I know there has to be a heavy grade done to the material or if I have some heavy-duty Green/Blue screen work to do. Most of my XAVC-I use is not for live broadcast. I use this XAVC-L workflow on any of the Sony cameras that offer me XAVC-L in probably 98% of situations.

IMHO so many people get carried away with the "If it's bigger it's got to be better" syndrome. Do you remember the groundbreaking "Top Gear" motoring show done by the BBC? That was all originally shot on XDCam 50mbps 8-bit 4:2:2 1080i which used the old MPEG-2 codec and it looked great. How the image is handled and presented is more important than sheer bitrate. I shoot live sports every week for broadcast and all our recordings are XAVC-L progressive and nobody says anything about the quality other than "Great pictures."

Check your Z280 manual page #137 for a list of formats and codecs you can shoot with. If it's only HD you need you can even use XAVC-L with SDXC cards formatted to exFAT. You would need either the MEAD-SD02 SDHC/SDXC Card Adapters from Sony or one of the other off-brand adapters for those SDXC cards. With the older SxS-1 cards you can shoot all the codecs bar the XAVC-I ones.

EDIT:
BTW. I had a look at those US$81.00 QDA-EX1 adapters selling on Ali Express and as far as I can tell they look identical to the genuine Sony ones I have. The" genuine" ones are also made in good old downtown China. A couple of those and some XQD cards and I would say you are on your way as the XQD cards will handle all the codecs the Z280 can throw at it using those QDA-EX1 adapters, as indicated on page #137 of the manual. That's exactly what I'm doing. Using XQD cards interchangeably between my XQD and SxS cameras.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/978782-REG/sony_mead_sd02_sdhc_sdxc_card_adaptor.html/overview/BI/2855/KBID/3801

Chris Young

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by David Anderson

It's frustrating that Sony has abandoned SxS cards and moving to XQD in virtually every application.

I believe you have that 180 degrees backwards. It is XQD cards that are on their way out. Heck, they were barely ever in. The FS7 and FX9 are the only video cameras that used them, and now it is down to only the FX9. On the other hand, SxS has been in use since 2007 and is a broadcast industry staple and will be around for years and years. All the high-end ENG cameras are going to use them for the foreseeable future. I have would have zero second thoughts about investing in more SxS cards if I found myself needing them.

Keep in mind that Z280 is a wolf in sheep's clothing. It is 90% as powerful and full-featured as it's bigger brothers, the Z450 and Z750. My Z750 cost more than $100K by the time I added a lens, batteries, and viewfinder. The Z280 is 90% the same camera for $7K. Amazing value, and not a camera that should be forced to suffer with substandard media. People make the mistake of lumping the Z280 with other cameras that only look similar on the outside. That is a big mistake. To use another automotive analogy, don't buy a Land Rover and then put Walmart tires on it.

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by David Anderson

Since I do have your attention (BTW - I purchased your master class for the ZX280) - can you speak to why the camera performs worse in low light in 4k vs HD mode?

Thank you for your support. Much appreciated.

I've never bothered to ask Sony for an explanation about the better performance in HD, but I assume it has to do with pixel binning. Compared to 4K, you have 4x more pixels (look at them like buckets catching rain) to capture light for 1920x1080.


Also, I believe you have made your last statement very biased in how you have phrased it. The camera is not "worse" in 4K. You should say it is "better" in HD. When you use the term "worse" it implies the camera isn't good at low light in 4K. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Z280 rates natively at 2000 ISO in 4K. Much higher than the FX6, FS7, FS5, and even the Z750. If you ignore the alpha mirrorless cameras I don't think Sony makes a better low-light 4K camera. Certainly not any camcorder.
Compared to similar-looking cameras from Panasonic, Canon, JVC, etc. is is far better in low light and with a cleaner image.
The Z280 is an amazing machine with great electronics and 3 sensors. Nothing else even comes close to matching it.

[David Anderson]

Interesting observation if that's true - using the extra pixels to gather light in HD mode. My intent wasn't to show bias - just an observation that I believe I saw in one of your videos. I just said it the opposite way.

The impetus for me moving from a Z190 to the Z280 was low light performance. I'm being asked to shoot in incredibly difficult situations and the Z190 wasn't delivering the quality product needed. I wonder if the Z190 exhibits the same characteristic in HD compared with 4K?

I can tell I have much to learn about different media formats as all I've dealt with is SD cards in the past. Appreciate your honesty and time.

Best,

David

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Thank you for your support. Much appreciated.

I've never bothered to ask Sony for an explanation about the better performance in HD, but I assume it has to do with pixel binning. Compared to 4K, you have 4x more pixels (look at them like buckets catching rain) to capture light for 1920x1080.


Also, I believe you have made your last statement very biased in how you have phrased it. The camera is not "worse" in 4K. You should say it is "better" in HD. When you use the term "worse" it implies the camera isn't good at low light in 4K. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Z280 rates natively at 2000 ISO in 4K. Much higher than the FX6, FS7, FS5, and even the Z750. If you ignore the alpha mirrorless cameras I don't think Sony makes a better low-light 4K camera. Certainly not any camcorder.
Compared to similar-looking cameras from Panasonic, Canon, JVC, etc. is is far better in low light and with a cleaner image.
The Z280 is an amazing machine with great electronics and 3 sensors. Nothing else even comes close to matching it.

[Doug Jensen]

David, yes a lot of this requires a big learning curve and sometimes there are no clear cut answers.

No, the Z190 does not exhibit any difference in sensitivity between 4K and HD. Obviously, if my theory about the Z280 is correct, then the same thing should apply to all other cameras, which is does not, so it calls into question my theory. I admit it. :-)

I will reach out to Sony to see what I can get direct from the horse's mouth.

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

... my advice is to set the Z280 for 4K XAVC-I @ 60 fps, aim it at a TV screen that is playing a sports program (lots of action for the codec to compress), and let it record until the card fills up. If it doesn't crap out, then odds are very good the card/adapter combination will probably be reliable all the time. In my experience, if a card/adapter passes this test it won't suddenly crap out some other time. Either it works or it doesn't. But don't blame be if you lose footage! :-)

Doug. Never done it with a TV screen but have done it on a regular basis with real live football with XQD cards at 50Hz 4K which is 500Mbps. Done this with straight XQDs in camera and with XQDs in various SxS cameras using genuine QDA-EX1 adapters and in what? I think it's now about five years or so now with regular weekly shoots and so far not even one adverse incident with either card technology... SxS or XQD. Tempting fate? I'll probably live to regret this comment now:)

Chris Young

[Doug Jensen]

Chris, yeah that is kind of my point. There's no need to disassemble a card to look at its guts. Whether someone is interested in using XQD or SDXC with the Z280, just put the card in the adapter and give it a try. If it works once, it will likely work forever.

[David Anderson]

Doug,

I'm a tech nerd and former electronics technician. I've purchased a genuine SxS Pro+ card, The genuine Sony SxS to XQD adapter as well as the one from Aliexpress and a Sony 240GB XQD card.

If you still have friends looking for SxS to XQD adapters my findings may prove to be a good resource.

According to the updated manual, the XQD should perform as well as the SxS card in this application.

I'm really wondering if Sony will do a firmware update to allow CF Express cards however if XQD can support the highest rate of recording the camera will do, the point is moot.

All the best,

David

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Chris, yeah that is kind of my point. There's no need to disassemble a card to look at its guts. Whether someone is interested in using XQD or SDXC with the Z280, just put the card in the adapter and give it a try. If it works once, it will likely work forever.

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Whether someone is interested in using XQD or SDXC with the Z280, just put the card in the adapter and give it a try. If it works once, it will likely work forever.

Hopefully!... :)

Chris Young

[David Anderson]

Doug,

Did you ever get an answer from Sony?

I have received the Genuine QDA-EX1 the SxS and the 120GB G Sony G card.

Both the SXS and QDA-EX1 with the 120GB XQD recorded for 22 minutes of ESPN at 3840x2160 59.94P XAVC-I - flawlessly.

I ran 8 separate tests and confirmed that 100% of the time the XQD with adapter recorded perfectly (also the SxS card).

As soon as I have the AliExpress card I'll do similar tests.

Hopeful this will be helpful for those looking for a rock solid solution that is more cost effective.

Still waiting for the AliExpress card. Will update after I have it and test results.

Best,

David

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

David, yes a lot of this requires a big learning curve and sometimes there are no clear cut answers.

No, the Z190 does not exhibit any difference in sensitivity between 4K and HD. Obviously, if my theory about the Z280 is correct, then the same thing should apply to all other cameras, which is does not, so it calls into question my theory. I admit it. :-)

I will reach out to Sony to see what I can get direct from the horse's mouth.

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by David Anderson

Just curious as to what XQD card reader you recommend.

Sorry I missed this question.

I'm using the original XQD card adapters that came with the XQD cards. In the early days of XQD Sony supplied a USB3 reader with each card. Though most of the time I'm using the original SBAC-US30 SxS card reader that I've had for ages as that will read my SxS cards and with their respective adapters SD and XQD.

Chris Young

[Anthony McErlean]

I see its not in stock now but I'm using this XQD reader and also works well.

XQD SD Card Reader, 4 in 1 USB 3.0 XQD Memory Card Reader Support Sony G/M Series USB Mark XQD Card, Lexar 2933x/1400x XQD Card,SD Card Compatible with Windows/Mac OS System【Upgraded Version】: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

 

XQD SD Card Reader, 4 in 1 USB 3.0 XQD Memory Card Reader Support Sony G/M Series USB Mark XQD Card, Lexar 2933x/1400x XQD Card,SD Card Compatible with Windows/Mac OS System【Upgraded Version】: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by David Anderson

Doug,

Did you ever get an answer from Sony?

I have received the Genuine QDA-EX1 the SxS and the 120GB G Sony G card.

Both the SXS and QDA-EX1 with the 120GB XQD recorded for 22 minutes of ESPN at 3840x2160 59.94P XAVC-I - flawlessly.

I ran 8 separate tests and confirmed that 100% of the time the XQD with adapter recorded perfectly (also the SxS card).

As soon as I have the AliExpress card I'll do similar tests.

Hopeful this will be helpful for those looking for a rock solid solution that is more cost effective.

Still waiting for the AliExpress card. Will update after I have it and test results.

Best,

David

Hi David, your results and advice match what I already said in my Z280 master class 3 years ago, so nothing has changed. But even Sony warns in the operation manual there is more risk when you're not using SxS. I predict the AliExpress card will also work flawlessly.

I did get an answer pretty fast from Sony about the reason for light sensitivity difference of HD vs. 4K. But I had a follow-up question that I never got an answer to, and then it slipped my mind to come back and report. Sorry. They confirmed what I said about the difference having to do with pixel binning. But my follow-up question was why we don't see the same thing with other cameras when we switch from 4K to HD? Why is the Z280 the only camera that I am aware of that offers this feature? But I never got a reply to that question.