Sony Z190

Cliff Totten · November 2nd, 2018, 08:53 AM

So I got the PXW Z190 and spent a few days testing it. There were things I loved about it and some other thing that I found were shockingly bad! I'm wondering if I just got a defective copy or if they are all like this.

What I loved:

Form factor and size.
Lens control with hard focus stops and zoom range.
Variable ND (absolutely love it)
Wafeform display
Professional menu functions
Picture profile and paint options.
The way it felt in my hands.
Lens focus calibration with on screen display.

What I hated:

Image quality!
Massive amounts of noise reduction and associated artifacts...even at 0db!
Lens was shockingly soft wide open and only got sharp at f.4+
Lens ghosting on edges.
Very high amounts of purple fringing on the long end.
Lens warping/distortion.

In the end,....as much as I love the convenience of professional ergonomics and features, I'm NOT willing to sacrifice that much image quality to get that!

I made a big mistake with my Z190. I decided to do a side by side test between the NX80 (same optical system as the X90 and Z150) and the Z190. A three 1/3 inch optical block vs a large 1 inch-type Bayer sensor shoot out.

Result?...the NX80 SMASHED the Z190 in image quality. The 1 inch-type sensor needed far less noise reduction and captured FAR more image clarity and resolution. The Z190 is heavily saturated with temporal noise reduction problems along most object edges. This type of image processing is fine for 1080 projects where nobody really cares about this stuff but for 4k viewing???

If there is one thing you can say about Sony's 1inch-type fully stacked Exmor RS sensor....they have made and sold so may of them that they have REALLY refined them into EXTREMELY efficient sensors for their size. (I think RS is Sony's 4th generation chip??)

It's just disappointing to see a NX80/X90/Z150 beat a $3700 camera THIS bad in final image quality. How can my "B" and "C" cams SPANK my "A" camera in a multicam project???

The Z190 has superior professional usability and convenience features,...absolutely no doubt! I love all the things Sony as given the Z190 in this respect.....in my opinion, it just doesn't produce a $3700 image! My copy of the Z190 didn't even produce a good $1000 image.

If you own a Z190, check these lens issues on your copy. Maybe B&H or UPS dropped mine when it got shipped??

Maybe my lens is bad so maybe we can excuse that. But the Z190 is getting hammered with massive amounts of heavy noise reduction. There is nothing was can do about it except to say that it's the price that must be paid to get 4k from a 1/3inch optical block. I would love to see Sony make a future "Z170" with this same form factor and pro options combined with Sony's 1inch-type sensor image quality! I suspect that Sony pushed the these 1/3inch chips a bit too far. 4k is too much photosite density for chips this small. (Even with the advantage of not having the Bayer pattern limitations)

Yes,...it's true that we could also just say, "Image quality isn't important as long as you have professional ergonomics and menu features" This might be true but I would argue that great ergonomics DOES make my life "easier" and less stressful during the shoot but that doesn't "necessarily" translate into a better final product in the end. When you watch your favorite move, you don't know how easy or hard it was to make on the set. The only thing you see is how good it looks on your TV. I know this is going to be a very unpopular thought among many here that DO believe that great ergonomics DOES translate into a better end product.

As someone that has one foot in the ENG camera world and another foot in cinema-style world (FS7)...and a third foot in the "DSLR" world (A7S-II and GH5), I can tell you that I know how to get good image result's from even the stressfully worst "gorilla warfare" ergonomic cameras. The GH5 in 10bit produces SPECTACULAR results if you are patient with it. (Even when compared to RED or VariCam or FS7 or anything else)

See the samples here.

Z190 owners,....do me a favor and check your lenses to see if yours has the problems that mine had. I'd love to hear that yours is fine. (I'm certain the massive amounts of noise reduction artifacts exists on all of them)

Download the full resolution frame grabs here - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oX...9n8Tf0otg1e8K1

CT

Jeff Pulera · November 2nd, 2018, 03:18 PM

Yikes! Better turn off the ND3 ;-)

As an X70 user, I can say something seems very wrong there...

Jeff

Cliff Totten · November 2nd, 2018, 06:01 PM

I used 0db in a low light scene specifically to see how the Z190's noise floor looked compared to the NX80's noise floor. I then ramped up the gain on each to inspect how much noise reduction processing was going on between them. I'll tell ya,...the NX80 holds up really well considering its sensor size. I cant say the same for the Z190!

Even at 0db, the Z190 noise reduction is scrubbing its image to Hell and back.

I literally just picked up another Sony Z150 to replace the one that I sold a few months back. I was thinking that Z190 would beat it but that clearly was a mistake on my part.

CT

Kenny Shem · November 2nd, 2018, 08:56 PM

I think you have gotten a bad copy. Mine does not have all those issues.

Doug Jensen · November 2nd, 2018, 09:09 PM

I agree. Besides, we all knew that Cliff would hate the Z190 before it ever arrived on his doorstep. The camera had no chance.

Cliff Totten · November 2nd, 2018, 09:24 PM

Actually, I was REALLY happy shooting with it for about 1 hour in the back yard. I mean REALLY happy going through all features of the camera. I fell in love it with instantly looking through the viewfinder and playing back through the LCD. It wasn't until I got into my NLE and brought it all up on my 4k monitor......that's when my heart sank. That's when I put it up against my NX80 and compared them.

Aside form the heavy noise reduction, I desperate to know if my (returned) Z190's lens was bad! I'm asking feedback from you guys. Going back and buying another one in NOT completely out of the question for me!

Is your lens VERY soft wide open and does it only get sharp at about f.4?

Are you seeing heavy purple fringing on bright objects after about 400mm zoom.

I don't need the Z190 to have spectacular image quality. I just need it's image to be on par with it's cheap NXCAM and Handycams cousins....that's all, nothing more.

Are you seeing image warping as shown in my samples?

I'm prepared to believe that received a severely defective lens on my Z190. So, I'm asking for Z190 folks to confirm that my lens was bad.

CT

Christopher Young · November 4th, 2018, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Download the full resolution frame grabs here

Cliff I think both of your 18dB examples are from the Z190?

Chris Young

November 2nd, 2018, 08:53 AM	#1
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Sony Z190 - Why I returned it! So I got the PXW Z190 and spent a few days testing it. There were things I loved about it and some other thing that I found were shockingly bad! I'm wondering if I just got a defective copy or if they are all like this. What I loved: Form factor and size. Lens control with hard focus stops and zoom range. Variable ND (absolutely love it) Wafeform display Professional menu functions Picture profile and paint options. The way it felt in my hands. Lens focus calibration with on screen display. What I hated: Image quality! Massive amounts of noise reduction and associated artifacts...even at 0db! Lens was shockingly soft wide open and only got sharp at f.4+ Lens ghosting on edges. Very high amounts of purple fringing on the long end. Lens warping/distortion. In the end,....as much as I love the convenience of professional ergonomics and features, I'm NOT willing to sacrifice that much image quality to get that! I made a big mistake with my Z190. I decided to do a side by side test between the NX80 (same optical system as the X90 and Z150) and the Z190. A three 1/3 inch optical block vs a large 1 inch-type Bayer sensor shoot out. Result?...the NX80 SMASHED the Z190 in image quality. The 1 inch-type sensor needed far less noise reduction and captured FAR more image clarity and resolution. The Z190 is heavily saturated with temporal noise reduction problems along most object edges. This type of image processing is fine for 1080 projects where nobody really cares about this stuff but for 4k viewing??? If there is one thing you can say about Sony's 1inch-type fully stacked Exmor RS sensor....they have made and sold so may of them that they have REALLY refined them into EXTREMELY efficient sensors for their size. (I think RS is Sony's 4th generation chip??) It's just disappointing to see a NX80/X90/Z150 beat a $3700 camera THIS bad in final image quality. How can my "B" and "C" cams SPANK my "A" camera in a multicam project??? The Z190 has superior professional usability and convenience features,...absolutely no doubt! I love all the things Sony as given the Z190 in this respect.....in my opinion, it just doesn't produce a $3700 image! My copy of the Z190 didn't even produce a good $1000 image. If you own a Z190, check these lens issues on your copy. Maybe B&H or UPS dropped mine when it got shipped?? Maybe my lens is bad so maybe we can excuse that. But the Z190 is getting hammered with massive amounts of heavy noise reduction. There is nothing was can do about it except to say that it's the price that must be paid to get 4k from a 1/3inch optical block. I would love to see Sony make a future "Z170" with this same form factor and pro options combined with Sony's 1inch-type sensor image quality! I suspect that Sony pushed the these 1/3inch chips a bit too far. 4k is too much photosite density for chips this small. (Even with the advantage of not having the Bayer pattern limitations) Yes,...it's true that we could also just say, "Image quality isn't important as long as you have professional ergonomics and menu features" This might be true but I would argue that great ergonomics DOES make my life "easier" and less stressful during the shoot but that doesn't "necessarily" translate into a better final product in the end. When you watch your favorite move, you don't know how easy or hard it was to make on the set. The only thing you see is how good it looks on your TV. I know this is going to be a very unpopular thought among many here that DO believe that great ergonomics DOES translate into a better end product. As someone that has one foot in the ENG camera world and another foot in cinema-style world (FS7)...and a third foot in the "DSLR" world (A7S-II and GH5), I can tell you that I know how to get good image result's from even the stressfully worst "gorilla warfare" ergonomic cameras. The GH5 in 10bit produces SPECTACULAR results if you are patient with it. (Even when compared to RED or VariCam or FS7 or anything else) See the samples here. Z190 owners,....do me a favor and check your lenses to see if yours has the problems that mine had. I'd love to hear that yours is fine. (I'm certain the massive amounts of noise reduction artifacts exists on all of them) Download the full resolution frame grabs here - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oX...9n8Tf0otg1e8K1 CT Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Cliff Totten; November 2nd, 2018 at 02:07 PM.

November 2nd, 2018, 03:18 PM	#2
Jeff Pulera Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Milwaukee WI Posts: 691	Re: Sony Z190 - Why I returned it! Yikes! Better turn off the ND3 ;-) As an X70 user, I can say something seems very wrong there... Jeff

November 2nd, 2018, 06:01 PM	#3
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: Sony Z190 - Why I returned it! I used 0db in a low light scene specifically to see how the Z190's noise floor looked compared to the NX80's noise floor. I then ramped up the gain on each to inspect how much noise reduction processing was going on between them. I'll tell ya,...the NX80 holds up really well considering its sensor size. I cant say the same for the Z190! Even at 0db, the Z190 noise reduction is scrubbing its image to Hell and back. I literally just picked up another Sony Z150 to replace the one that I sold a few months back. I was thinking that Z190 would beat it but that clearly was a mistake on my part. CT Last edited by Cliff Totten; November 2nd, 2018 at 06:36 PM.

November 2nd, 2018, 08:56 PM	#4
Kenny Shem Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 163	Re: Sony Z190 - Why I returned it! I think you have gotten a bad copy. Mine does not have all those issues. __________________ http://www.alvinadelineweddings.com

November 2nd, 2018, 09:09 PM	#5
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,442	Re: Sony Z190 - Why I returned it! I agree. Besides, we all knew that Cliff would hate the Z190 before it ever arrived on his doorstep. The camera had no chance. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

November 2nd, 2018, 09:24 PM	#6
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: Sony Z190 - Why I returned it! Actually, I was REALLY happy shooting with it for about 1 hour in the back yard. I mean REALLY happy going through all features of the camera. I fell in love it with instantly looking through the viewfinder and playing back through the LCD. It wasn't until I got into my NLE and brought it all up on my 4k monitor......that's when my heart sank. That's when I put it up against my NX80 and compared them. Aside form the heavy noise reduction, I desperate to know if my (returned) Z190's lens was bad! I'm asking feedback from you guys. Going back and buying another one in NOT completely out of the question for me! Is your lens VERY soft wide open and does it only get sharp at about f.4? Are you seeing heavy purple fringing on bright objects after about 400mm zoom. I don't need the Z190 to have spectacular image quality. I just need it's image to be on par with it's cheap NXCAM and Handycams cousins....that's all, nothing more. Are you seeing image warping as shown in my samples? I'm prepared to believe that received a severely defective lens on my Z190. So, I'm asking for Z190 folks to confirm that my lens was bad. CT Last edited by Cliff Totten; November 3rd, 2018 at 10:33 AM.