Sony Z190 - Impossible Huge Flaw?

[Cliff Totten]

So I sold my Z150 earlier this year and have been using my NX80 and FS7 for events work and live corporate webcasts. I'm getting tired of using the FS7 for some events work like this and I decided that the Z190 should be enough to do what I need,

I purchased the Z190 yesterday and it will be here on Friday. So, I decided to download the user manual and get a head start on anything new about this camera. I then come across a section that says the Z190 can't record 4k simultaneously to both cards! WTF????....I mean, seriously...WTF???

This MUST be a mistake! Sony writes 4k to both cards on a HUGE variety of MUCH CHEAPER Handycam, Alpha, NXCAM and XDCAM cameras. How is it possible that Sony has DISABLED this KEY reliability function that it has previously allowed before on so many cheaper cameras????

There is no excuse If this is a "technical" problem, They only need to clone the data copy buss to both cards. Did they think people would not notice this was a huge problem? If lowering the media reliability was a deliberate STUNT to pressure people to move into the Z280, then this is a shameful and offensive tactic on Sony's part. Dont hurt your good name by blocking the ability for your customers to record reliably to SD cards!...ESPECIALLY ON A MODEL THIS HIGH UP YOUR PRODUCT LADDER!!

If this is true,..I FIND THIS DOWNRIGHT DISGUSTING!. The manual says the 1080 simultaneous writing IS allowed but 4k is not!!! I'm hoping this is a simple user manual misprint and if is, I take it all back and apologize in advance to Sony. if this is not true, my decades of love and faith in Sony will continue unaffected. If this is true, whoever made this decision at Sony needs to be fired. Don't drag your good name into the mud over a stupid, silly, trick like this.

CT

Edit: WTF = What The Fudge ;- )

[Doug Jensen]

It's true. But I don't get why it is so important and I'd never use if it had it. I have NEVER used simultaneous on any previous camera before the Z190/Z280 and I'd never use it now. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be outraged over it and ready to storm the castle with burning torches, but for me it is a big nothing.

BTW, even the FS7 and F55 can't record 4K to both cards. Only NXCAM products have been able to do that, such as the FS5. I am not aware of any XDCAM products that can record 4K to two cards.

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

.ESPECIALLY ON A MODEL THIS HIGH UP YOUR PRODUCT LADDER!!

You think a $3800 camera is high up the product ladder? It's only $750 more than a Z150. It's amazing what Sony packs into the Z190 for the price but it is certainly not high up the ladder.

[Cliff Totten]

XQD and SxS cards are more robust and trustworthy. SD cards are better today and no, I have never lost data on good (SanDisk) SD cards "yet". I also have a utility that I run that tests my SD cards and maps out any bad cells identified on a card. This allows you to throw it away. (or just give it to your wife as a gift)

My only point is that it's VERY nice to have a second backup SD card when when recording so if one card does have a bad cell, the other can save our butts. Sony strongly markets and touts this in their materials....but then blocks it in the Z190 in 4k!

It's true, the Z190 is a relatively "cheap" camcorder. However, it's not a consumer grade model like HandyCams and Alphas. The Sony NX80, X70, FS5, FS5-II, X90, NX200, AX700, Z150 and A7-III are even cheaper (not FS5-II) and Sony is happy to give THEM dual (backup) recording!! So those are Alpha, HandyCam, NXCAM and XDCAM products.. (Maybe Sony feels consumers need that reliability but Z190 Pros dont?")

It just seems bizarre that Sony would block that ability in 4k but allow it in 1080....especially with cheap SD cards media. I hate silly stunts and games like this. Sony, if you want to cripple a camera, I get it, do it...but do it with real features and functions. Dont cripple the actual recording reliability of the camera like this....and don't make many CHEAPER cameras have that ability for heavens sake! It just looks really bad when consumer cameras do more that "Pro" cameras do.

I dont have high expectations for the Z190. I only have simple tasks for it. Mostly recording corporate lectures, live events streaming into a video switcher, just simple lite duty stuff. I "might" take it to Alaska with me next year for wildlife hiking if that 700+MM zoom lens looks OK. So,...I'm not asking for this Z190 to be amazing. I just need it to do what lower Sony cameras can do with write safety on SD cards.

CT

[Noa Put]

I get why it is important for those who want dual recording capability in the same quality, it can be to give a client a card on location and to take the other card with you or just to have a back up in case one card contains corrupt data, it just is a weird Sony does add that functionality to their cheaper camera's. Who knows, soon they will give you that option with a paid upgrade. :)

[Cliff Totten]

Yes!...if Sony charges a couple of hundred dollars to unlock the 4k side of dual card backup,...I'd gladly buy it!

Sony...PLEASE charge us for a Z190 unlock code! (even though they give it for free on every other cheaper model)

[Doug Jensen]

Put that money into better cards that you can trust and you then won't even need dual record. :-)

[Cliff Totten]

Even the best SD cards on the market are not guaranteed. SD cards have the least reliable design of the three. (SxS, XQD and SD)

I just want Sony to stop playing silly games like this. Especially when they allow so many other cheaper cameras to have it.

CT

[Doug Jensen]

Why do you characterize it as silly games? I think it is so childish when people take product features (or lack thereof), pricing, subscription plans, or whatever personally. If you like someone's product, buy it. If you don't like it, then find another. But I never get angry when a product doesn't have features I may have wanted on a product. Sure, if a product does not perform as advertised, that is something different. But it's not games, it's not a personal attack, and it's nothing to get so riled up over. Move on if the product isn't want you want and buy something else from Sony or another company. No product is ever going to have all the features you/I want. That's life. Accept it and stop whining. And yes, it is whining. Go back and read your own posts if you don't believe me. Very unprofessional.

[Cliff Totten]

I'm not so willing to give up on stuff like this. Sony HAS listened to it's customers in the past!

When the FS5 first came out, Sony decided to set it's minimum SLOG 0db to a noisy 3200 ISO. They deliberately raised the sensor pre-amp to make it noisier than the 2000 ISO 0db of the FS7 and FS700.

It was unnecessarily high so I called Sony at Teaneck NJ and complained. I sent several emails to two of the Sony reps that I talk to at NAB every year. (you know them too!) I complained on forums everywhere I could. I begged them to lower their sensor preamp to match the FS7 and FS700's 2000 ISO. What happened two firmware versions later? Sony reduced it's FS5 0db to 2000 ISO and it cleaned up SLOG considerably! Now,...I'm not saying I'm SURE "I" caused that...but Sony at least DID hear my voice. I know that as a fact.

I have complained about several things that Sony has eventually come through on. 100Mbp/s 4k on the X70 instead of the 60Mbp/s. Teaneck literally told me TWICE: "I'm sorry the X70's internal motherboard tops out at 60mbp/s 4k...it physically can't do 100mbp/s" It took a year of stomping my feet...but Sony eventually gave us 100mbp/s! I demanded focus peaking be added to the VG10...6 months later,...we got it!!! I can give a couple more examples too!

Doug,....we both know that Sony WILL listen to it's customers and they DO value our feedback. Sometimes they have a change of heart and eventually AGREE with us! I'm hoping they listen again on this one as it will make their Z190 match what other cheaper Sony models can do.

I'm not throwing in the towel on Sony yet!...I'm keeping the faith! Let's see if the good folks at Sony change their minds.(I think sometimes we can make them feel guilty!!)

CT ;-)

[Doug Jensen]

Oh, I know they listen. They even sent me to Japan once to consult with the engineers and I have participated in several one-on-one private sessions in the back halls of NAB. This year I brought a two-page proposal for a new camera and gave it to the Japanese engineers at NAB and within 24 hours I already had follow-up questions from people who were back in Tokyo. I don't know what has become of it since then, but I know they listened and it will have an impact one way or another even if they don't build the exact camera I have proposed.

All, I'm saying is this is not the place to rant and rave because it looks silly and Sony isn't reading anything here. If you want to effect changes, I wish you luck, but I highly doubt this is the place or you have used the right tone. BTW, of all the things I would want to change on the Z190, your idea is far down on my list of priorities. How about being limited to only 60 fps in HD? That is a big mistake and something I started lobbying to get changed clear last April. But in the mean time, you don't see me calling it "disgusting".

[Leslie Wand]

now if we'd only have had dual recoding betasp tapes drop-outs might have been a thing of the past ;-)

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Put that money into better cards that you can trust and you then won't even need dual record. :-)

I would be interested to know which exact type of cards never fail.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Oh, I know they listen.

My impression about this is that manufacturers would listen to the regular person if something did not work as expected but only when a lot of people would start to complain online on forums and facebook because that would have an effect on their sales.

Only one person ranting about what he/she thinks should have been designed or implemented different is something they most likely won't be bothered about because often those limitations are build in for a reason.

there can be exceptions though,I got the jvc ls300 as soon as it came out and like most semi- or professional cameras it had a switch on the side to toggle between 3 different iso values, the camera also had a dial that could controll either shutter or f-stop. I couldn't understand why they didn't assign ISO to that dial as well so one could use it to quickly controll and finetune the ISO, something that could be very valuable for a run and gun shooter.

I mentioned it a lot of times on this forum and was as far as I knew the only person complaining about this (to me at least) obvious missing functionality.

To my big surprise, the next firmware update came out and JVC added that functionality, now it might have been coincedence but I doubt it was and I still believe that my complaint but more the reasoning that I put behind it why it was so important could have been picked up by a JVC representative on this forum and passed along to the engineers who most likely just had a to add a few lines of code to make it happen.

I"m just saying that you don't always have to accept like it is and move on like you say, sometimes they do monitor forums and if you are lucky they will listen. Sony however does not strike me as a company that takes user complaints about camera functionality that seriously, if they cripple a camera it can be for very specific reasons, maybe to protect a higher end model sales or with the intention to sell it later on as a paid upgrade.

[Christopher Young]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

I purchased the Z190 yesterday and it will be here on Friday. So, I decided to download the user manual and get a head start on anything new about this camera. I then come across a section that says the Z190 can't record 4k simultaneously to both cards! WTF????....I mean, seriously...WTF???

Cliff you say you use an FS7. What mode on that camera can record simultaneously to both cards in 4K/UHD?? None that I'm aware of? Not even in XAVC-L 50p @150Mbps. I'm not in front of the camera to check but I'm sure dual 4k recording is not possible on the FS7?? Or is it?. Also remember with the FS7 that's to 400MB write XQD cards not SD cards. Besides a few cameras that do simultaneously record stop on both cards if one of the cards fails during the record session so no massive advantage there.

Leslie re dropouts. I remember a shoot with our ex Prime Minister Bob Hawke. I used to only use Fuji tapes on the SP Beta as I ever only had minimal dropouts with Fujis. The CH9 producer for the shoot turned up with a box of Sony SP tapes and said "Here use these.". Turned out to be a disaster for dropouts. Nearly every close shot of Bob's head had dropouts.going through. It took us a day in post capturing the bad frames on a Qantel Paint Box and painting through the dropouts with data from the previous or later fields.Then going through the painful task of doing single frame time code accurate video inserts to fix the problem. Never used Sony tapes again!

Chris Young