X180 or X200, trying to decide

[Samer Aslan]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

Really? And Sony has not made a new wide angle converter to work with the new lens? You're supposed to launch a camera with a new wide angle lens if you've changed the lens.

This will truly screw people over if this is the case, but then this is a customer service rep we're talking about here.

Edit: And I've double checked, no one online has even tried to fit the VCL-EX0877 to a PXW-X200. We're currently only assuming it's incompatible.

Hi everyone, unfortunately based only on the info i found on the internet i bought a used VCL-EX0877 for my X200 and it doesn't fit the lens! I have also a PMW-200 and a HVR-Z7 and it fits both.

[Paul Anderegg]

That SUCKS Samer! Try a 16x9 EXII in either 0.75x or 0.8x flavors. Those models are all the same with adaptor rings on the back. Only gripe is they are heavier than the Sony model, but you can find them on eBay from like Adorama used for around $100-150!

And the JVC HM200 is what I consider to be an OPTIMAL ergonomic design. Flip switches, a separate dial for iris, none of that damn button sharing stuff. The issues? Well, 1/2.3" sensor sucks, listed f5.6 sensitivity sucks as well.

Know what really sucks about the HM200? f1.2 at wide, then f3.5 at tele! If that ramps like the X70 does, your looking at a 3 stop (18db!) reduction in light at 6x zoom in! 3 stops!!!!!!!

Paul

[Jack Zhang]

Originally Posted by Samer Aslan

Hi everyone, unfortunately based only on the info i found on the internet i bought a used VCL-EX0877 for my X200 and it doesn't fit the lens! I have also a PMW-200 and a HVR-Z7 and it fits both.

Thank you for being the first real account of them not being compatible.

That really stings. Sony has not released their own replacement with the new bayonet mount of the X200. Shame on them. Looks like the only option are 77mm threaded WA adapters.

[Robert Bale]

Hi all, ok so I have had a (ex3 work horse) , also have a PMW200 / X70 and a X160, I think all cameras are good and they have a time and place for each shoot, but if any one wishes to Skype call me one day and talk me through a few settings, re Knee, gamma, slop and so on,,,,, I will be happy to do a few real would tests and post them back here. The zoom on the X160 is worth it, as I try to shoot around f4 most times. But yes my Sony wide and Tele will not fit, :(
*** Chris you seem to know a bit and have a good knowage of what I have read, feel free to drop me a msg.
Rob.

[Paul Anderegg]

For those interested in lens ramping and maximum available iris, I found the following f-stop chart with 1/3 increments. very handy for figuring out what lens will allow what available light if you have a test clip showing several cameras at the same gain and f-stop.

So in the YouTube video below, you can see the PMW200 is much brighter at 18db gain, but this test is useless, because the X70 is set to f2.8, the PMW200 to f1.9. According to the f-stop chart, if you match the PMW200 to the X70's f2.8, your looking at slightly over 1 stop (6-7db) of sensitivity loss, and add to that the X70 will go UP another 15db! If you factor in that both the 70 and the 200 loose 1 stop at maximum telephoto, they may offer the same low light performance staying in the optical zoom range.

NEED A DIRECT PXW-180/200 vs PXW-X70 LOW LIGHT COMPARO! :(

Low light / gain: Sony PXW-X70 camcorder vs Canon XA20 & XF200, and Sony PMW-200 - YouTube

[Rob Hargreaves]

I have just received an X200 to demo for the week, so message me with what test you'd like versus the X70 (or JVC 650 - also on demo) and I'll see what I can do for you ;)

[Paul Anderegg]

BTW Rob, the HM650 in standard (not extended) mode is f9/f10@2000 (NTSC/PAL), same as the standard rating for the X180. It might make a decent stand in at f1.6 for the X180, but then again, cameras can all be different to an extent greater than expected.

Paul

[Rob Hargreaves]

Here's an indoor test of the X200 vs X70, I'm loading the outdoor test to one drive for you.

YouTube (Short URL)

[Paul Anderegg]

That's perfect Rob! Gives a bit of a base for comparison. According to the test shots, the X70 matches the X200's maximum 18db of gain at 24db. Roughly a stop and a half more sensitive on the side of the X200. That would make the X70's sensitivity around f8@2000 (PAL), or roughly equivalent to an old 1992 Sony BVW300A Betacam. I am basing that on the Sony X200 listed f13@2000 (PAL) specifications, and an f-stop chart.

This would make the X70 9db faster at f4.0, the aperture you are stuck with from 60% zoom 7x (60%) higher. The X200 can open up to f2.8 at it's maximum zoom, so it gains back an extra 1 stop, 6db. At wide angle, the X200 gains yet another stop (f2.8 to f1.9) , 6db, but the X70 gains a stop f(4.0 to f2.8) going wide as well.

If my brain math is correct, that would put the X200 at a 3db advantage at wide angle, and the X70 at a 3db advantage at telephoto, but that X70 advantage would be nullified as I am sure the X200 ramping would allow a bit bigger than f2.8 around it's 12x mark. For anyone looking at the JVC HM200, it is listed as f5.6 (NTSC), if that is correct, it would be a stop faster (f1.2) than the X70 at wide angle, but two stops (f3.5) slower at the identical 12x. Imagine an X70 limited to 18db gain!

The X70, X180, and X200, all seem to have a 1 stop loss from wide to full telephoto. I was afraid of the limitations of 18db gain on these cameras compared to 33db on the X70, but this makes me feel much more comfortable, the X70 needs that gain just to be able to see in sunlight. :)

[Rob Hargreaves]

It's late at night here in London, so I'll assume your maths is correct ;)
What the X200 also allows is better picture profile tweaking!
I was able to get a fairly accurate vectorscope reading because the X200 allows hue and saturation changes to individual colours as well as the whole image.
I am in the process of producing another Pro's and Con's review of it, and I'll have low light footage compared to the X70 JVC 650 and PMW-400.
It certainly feels like a really solid well built camera, although a bit heavy at 2.87kgs with battery, hood and SXS card...

[Paul Anderegg]

I found the X70 to be uncorrectable, you could make a color, maybe two, better, but full correction is beyond the scope of the current firmware menu settings. Also, my broadcast engineer tech scoped my X70, and told me my black balance was green. I told him the camera doesn't have a black shading function. He seemed a bit shocked.

I just ordered up 2 32GB SxS-1 cards and a USB 3.0 reader for $600, yikes! So basically, I am pushing myself into an SxS camera by force. Below is the available matrix correction menu items per the X180 manual. Not sure what multi matrix is.....my X70 experience would tend to make me think "hey, you get to adjust a second color along with the first one, that's two colors!" :)

[Paul Anderegg]

Well, I made up my mind, the X180, 8 0 it is. Didn't want to deal with the grey market x160 horrible eBay seller with 25,000 negative feedback, so getting the X180 from B&H. Am already thinking of ways to utilize the live streaming less than SD feature as well as FTP, since I am paying for them. :-)

I will let anyone interested know if my EXII 0.75x and 0.8x wide adapters work on the X180 without vignetting. If they don;t work, I think I might be OK with the standard 26mm wide angle, as my X70 or the X200 with a 0.8x works out to around 24mm, not too much of a difference.

The AVCHD and non UDF file structure are also a big benefit, and go with the USB 3.0 SxS card reader to allow compatibility when ingesting my footage into other photog's FCPX Macbooks. My SxS reader will work as my SD card reader with an adapter, since my SD card slot in my computer is out of service. Very excited about this package, especially the 25x zoom!

Paul

[Scott Hayes]

I know this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but between the C100 MK II and the PXW-200 for wedding and event work, which one?

[Jack Zhang]

Personally, I'd go with the Fujinon lens rather than the G lenses.

At 1/50 shutter, you lose sensitivity compared to having the shutter off at 1080i or 1080p50. I think the test should be re-done at 1080p50 for both cameras to better gauge the native sensitivity. The shutter + 25p skewed the sensitivity results.

Also, If you are REALLY good with your manual focus, the C100 MKII is a great machine combined with something like the Atomos Ninja. Otherwise, if you want less DOF to make focusing easier, the X200 has really good ergonomics.

[Paul Anderegg]

Jack, whether the frame rate was 25p or 50p, the shutter speed would determine the sensitivity of the sensor. Switching to 25p from 50p while keeping 1/25th for each, would not allow an increase in sensitivity. You probably know that, but I just wanted to clarify it in case anyone read it wrong. Simply looking for comparable sensitivity at identical settings.

Paul