Noisy EX3 shots at DVinfo.net

Peter Brinkman · February 26th, 2014, 03:43 PM

I lately notice a lot of noise in the dark parts of my shots. As you can see in enclosed still.

This is shot with the EX3 gain on 0 - 1080i - shutter speed on 60 - using the pp Doug prefers.
Normally I shoot on -3db and shutter speed off but al so then there is noise visual.

Any ideas?

TIA

Peter Brinkman · February 26th, 2014, 03:48 PM

Here is the still

Shaun Roemich · February 26th, 2014, 03:56 PM

If you are talking about the noise in the blue seat back, that looks pretty typical of an EX3 in a mid-to-low light scenario to me.

The 35mbps codec is a reasonably noisy one, especially when compared to the 50mbps mode of the PMW200/300 cameras.

Peter Brinkman · February 26th, 2014, 04:04 PM

Hi,

Yeah it's shot in a low light situation. But I had the idea that if I could hold the gain on 0 with iris on 1.9 it would be ok. No picture profile can change this I think.

Attached another still.

Chris Medico · February 26th, 2014, 05:03 PM

Did you by chance shoot this with CINE4? That gamma curve lifts the dark areas and will make the noise a lot more noticable.

To minimize the look of the noise in the blacks it is best to use a gamma curve that lowers the blacks such as CINE1.

Peter Brinkman · February 27th, 2014, 02:19 AM

Yes it's on CINE4. It is the recommended setting for overall shooting in the Field Guide I have. But I'll have a look at a setting which will handle low light better.

Thanks.

Chris Medico · February 27th, 2014, 07:53 AM

CINE4 is better to boost the bottom end which leads to a better image in low light. Noise will be more apparent using that curve. Use it only when necessary.

Jacques Mersereau · February 27th, 2014, 04:17 PM

A couple of things to note from what I've noticed with the EX3.

The EXCAM 35mbps codec is the issue with the blacks even at -3db.
The camera sensor exhibits quite a bit of noise even when we shoot uncompressed (green screen) via Kona3 and a raid.

But, if you can record ProRes to an external recorder, the blacks look much cleaner.

If you have the wherewithal, neat video does a pretty good job of cleaning up that noise.

Chris has some good suggestions, and perhaps some CC might also be sufficient.

As always, WMMV.

Doug Jensen · February 27th, 2014, 07:23 PM

The difference you're seeing in picture quality when using an external 10-bit capable recorder is mostly due to 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 and 8-bit vs. 10 bit -- and not really so much the bit rate. It is nearly impossible to see any visual difference between 35Mbps, 50Mps or even 100 Mbps if all other things are equal.

So, the important difference between internal recording on a EX3 and a PMW-200 is really the 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 -- the higher 50 Mpbs bit rate is just icing on the cake but doesn't make a big difference.

Shaun Roemich · February 27th, 2014, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

So, the importance difference between internal recording on a EX3 and a PMW-200 is really the 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 -- the higher 50 Mpbs bit rate is just icing on the cake but doesn't make a big difference.

To be fair, Doug, the 50mbps FACILITATES the extra information PROVIDED by the 4:2:2.

Doug Jensen · February 27th, 2014, 07:37 PM

No, they are two independent settings. I can easily record 4:2:2 at any bit rate I want with the appropriate external recorder or a software encoder on a computer. So, sorry, they have nothing to do with each other.

Shaun Roemich · February 27th, 2014, 07:40 PM

They DO with the XDCam codec set.

35 mbps is 4:2:0 and 50 mbps is 4:2:2.

I'm SPECIFICALLY referencing your SECOND paragraph in your above statement regarding INTERNAL recording.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

So, the important difference between internal recording on a EX3 and a PMW-200 is really the 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 -- the higher 50 Mpbs bit rate is just icing on the cake but doesn't make a big difference.

Doug Jensen · February 27th, 2014, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

The 35mbps codec is a reasonably noisy one, especially when compared to the 50mbps mode of the PMW200/300 cameras.

I am referencing your comments above which is completely wrong. There is no difference in noise between 35Mpbs and 50Mbps when everything else is equal.

Doug Jensen · February 27th, 2014, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

They DO with the XDCam codec set.

35 mbps is 4:2:0 and 50 mbps is 4:2:2.

I'm SPECIFICALLY referencing your SECOND paragraph in your above statement regarding INTERNAL recording.

Yes, and I stand by that statement 100%. What is your issue with it?

Shaun Roemich · February 27th, 2014, 08:02 PM

There is no way to record 4:2:2 XDCam at 35mbps.

Therefore the statement that "the higher 50 Mpbs bit rate is just icing on the cake but doesn't make a big difference." certainly appears to me to be double-talk and erroneous. One cannot record 35mbps 4:2:2 XDCam and to GET 4:2:2 XDCam one needs to record 50mbps, the additional 15mbps being allocated to the additional colour information unless I am seriously misinformed.

ADDENDUM: not QUITE as simple as that - the 15mbps is very likely allocated not JUST to the extra colour but I would argue the additional colour depth certainly makes up the lion's share...

February 26th, 2014, 03:43 PM	#1
Peter Brinkman Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 34	Noisy EX3 shots I lately notice a lot of noise in the dark parts of my shots. As you can see in enclosed still. This is shot with the EX3 gain on 0 - 1080i - shutter speed on 60 - using the pp Doug prefers. Normally I shoot on -3db and shutter speed off but al so then there is noise visual. Any ideas? TIA

February 26th, 2014, 03:48 PM	#2
Peter Brinkman Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 34	Re: Noisy EX3 shots Here is the still Attached Thumbnails

February 26th, 2014, 03:56 PM	#3
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	Re: Noisy EX3 shots If you are talking about the noise in the blue seat back, that looks pretty typical of an EX3 in a mid-to-low light scenario to me. The 35mbps codec is a reasonably noisy one, especially when compared to the 50mbps mode of the PMW200/300 cameras. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

February 26th, 2014, 04:04 PM	#4
Peter Brinkman Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 34	Re: Noisy EX3 shots Hi, Yeah it's shot in a low light situation. But I had the idea that if I could hold the gain on 0 with iris on 1.9 it would be ok. No picture profile can change this I think. Attached another still. Attached Thumbnails

February 26th, 2014, 05:03 PM	#5
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Noisy EX3 shots Did you by chance shoot this with CINE4? That gamma curve lifts the dark areas and will make the noise a lot more noticable. To minimize the look of the noise in the blacks it is best to use a gamma curve that lowers the blacks such as CINE1. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

February 27th, 2014, 02:19 AM	#6
Peter Brinkman Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 34	Re: Noisy EX3 shots Yes it's on CINE4. It is the recommended setting for overall shooting in the Field Guide I have. But I'll have a look at a setting which will handle low light better. Thanks.

February 27th, 2014, 07:53 AM	#7
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Noisy EX3 shots CINE4 is better to boost the bottom end which leads to a better image in low light. Noise will be more apparent using that curve. Use it only when necessary. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

February 27th, 2014, 04:17 PM	#8
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Re: Noisy EX3 shots A couple of things to note from what I've noticed with the EX3. The EXCAM 35mbps codec is the issue with the blacks even at -3db. The camera sensor exhibits quite a bit of noise even when we shoot uncompressed (green screen) via Kona3 and a raid. But, if you can record ProRes to an external recorder, the blacks look much cleaner. If you have the wherewithal, neat video does a pretty good job of cleaning up that noise. Chris has some good suggestions, and perhaps some CC might also be sufficient. As always, WMMV. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

February 27th, 2014, 07:23 PM	#9
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	Re: Noisy EX3 shots The difference you're seeing in picture quality when using an external 10-bit capable recorder is mostly due to 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 and 8-bit vs. 10 bit -- and not really so much the bit rate. It is nearly impossible to see any visual difference between 35Mbps, 50Mps or even 100 Mbps if all other things are equal. So, the important difference between internal recording on a EX3 and a PMW-200 is really the 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 -- the higher 50 Mpbs bit rate is just icing on the cake but doesn't make a big difference. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools Last edited by Doug Jensen; February 27th, 2014 at 07:39 PM. Reason: fixed a misspelling

February 27th, 2014, 07:37 PM	#11
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	Re: Noisy EX3 shots No, they are two independent settings. I can easily record 4:2:2 at any bit rate I want with the appropriate external recorder or a software encoder on a computer. So, sorry, they have nothing to do with each other. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

February 27th, 2014, 08:02 PM	#15
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	Re: Noisy EX3 shots There is no way to record 4:2:2 XDCam at 35mbps. Therefore the statement that "the higher 50 Mpbs bit rate is just icing on the cake but doesn't make a big difference." certainly appears to me to be double-talk and erroneous. One cannot record 35mbps 4:2:2 XDCam and to GET 4:2:2 XDCam one needs to record 50mbps, the additional 15mbps being allocated to the additional colour information unless I am seriously misinformed. ADDENDUM: not QUITE as simple as that - the 15mbps is very likely allocated not JUST to the extra colour but I would argue the additional colour depth certainly makes up the lion's share... __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/