Ex1r?

Duncan Craig · December 23rd, 2011, 03:21 PM

Peter, you seem to have already set your mind on EX.

But choosing a camera based on your editing system is daft. Particularly when you can easily transcode footage between codecs.

Realtime effects? You're not talking about starwipes and dodgy home movie stuff are you?

You've said you want to be creative? If you are a hobbyist, why bother with a camera like this.
Look around for reels shot on EX's versus DSLRs etc, and you'll see a lot more creativity or 'art' anyway, showing up in the latter.

What an EX gives you over an FS100 or similar:

Slightly sharper video.
A poor servo zoom (Zooms shots are only used sparingly in professional production, rather like auto focus).
Ability to operating handheld for longer running times.

But
Can you deal with the EX lenses lens problems?
Are you happy to use expensive batteries?
You'll need an IR filter to fix the IR contamination that all AX's suffer from!
It's a heavy camera compared to a Z1!

FYI An FS100 with the kit 18-200 lens seems to have amazing autofocus.

For the record the AVCHD codec has proven to be really really good.
And often deemed twice as efficient as XDCAM EX.
Yes it perhaps has to be transcoded, but you aren't working to a deadline are you?

I'm only spending my time writing this, as I really think an EX will offer you very very little.
I only got rid of my Z1 recently, I still loved the handling, the weight, the smooth ramping zoom etc etc.
Sure its old tech, but 1080p is just sharper video, and 1/2 inch is still a tiny sensor.

An EX1 suits my regular commercial work where I need to move fast, hand operate on a jib, and run HDSDI. But a FS100 (for example) would be my choice of camera to shoot everything else. TBH I'm going to hold out for an FS200 perhaps it'll have a fully articulating screen and HDSDI.

Duncan.

David Heath · December 23rd, 2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Craig

For the record the AVCHD codec has proven to be really really good.
And often deemed twice as efficient as XDCAM EX.

To the second sentence - not true.

It's reasonable to say that AVCHD or H264 *MAY* be twice as efficient as MPEG2 in theory. In practice it isn't, not for the equipment we're talking about. The spec allows for a lot of coding efficiencies - but most real time coders (definitely those in camcorders) don't take advantage of all the possibilities, hence have nowhere near twice the efficiency.

Spend tens of thousands of dollars on broadcast H264 encoders and you may well get twice the coding efficiency of MPEG2. Spend a few thousand dollars on a complete camera and you won't - nowhere near. Current AVC-HD cameras give slightly better than HDV quality (and full raster) at somewhat less than HDV bitrates - but they don't compare with 35Mbs XDCAM EX.

Duncan Craig · December 23rd, 2011, 06:24 PM

So the FS100's 24Mbps ACVHD is worse than an EX1's 35Mbps XDCAM EX
And that it's no better than HDV?

Wow, Sony have really dropped the ball then!

Les Wilson · December 23rd, 2011, 06:35 PM

Peter, contrary to what Duncan implies, people with EX1Rs do creative and artistic work. Example:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/ex-serie...ml#post1704170

Duncan Craig · December 23rd, 2011, 07:24 PM

Um hold on Les. I didn't imply that you cannot be creative with an EX1. I think I make OK pictures with mine which appears on upwards of 1000 television commercial a year in the UK.

Burgess Pet Care's Supadog Dog Food makes TV Debut! - YouTube
Bill Plant Driving School, National TV Advertisement - YouTube
Go Outdoors - Drama - You Tube
GO Outdoors TV Ad 23/05 - YouTube
Coral Windows TV Advert Oct2011 - YouTube
Views of Holy Island - Anglesey, North Wales - YouTube
OneCall - TV Commercial - YouTube

What I'm suggesting is that if you go hunting on Vimeo for interesting experimental, edgy, arty, cool, short films and promos, there are more being made on DSLR type stuff. Why? Price, size, low light and accessibility I suppose. SDOF is the flavour right now for sure of course too.

An EX1 is a workhorse for sure, but it's no fun.

Duncan.

Les Wilson · December 23rd, 2011, 10:17 PM

I have to disagree. The EX1R is a blast. It's my 5D mark 2 that's a pain in the neck. DSLRs make pretty much everything harder to do, take longer, and need a bunch of extra gear to be functional.

David Heath · December 24th, 2011, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Craig

So the FS100's 24Mbps ACVHD is worse than an EX1's 35Mbps XDCAM EX

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Craig

And that it's no better than HDV?

It's full raster (1920x1080 versus 1440x1080), and "a bit" better in other respects. How much will vary with individual coders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Craig

Wow, Sony have really dropped the ball then!

Not at all. It's a question of market segmentation. I'm sure Sony themselves will tell you that the XDCAM range is seen as higher than the NXCAM range, or you only have to look at prices. Hence part of that is higher priced range gets the better codec. Just look at the FS100 versus the F3. Are you trying to tell us Sony deliberately put the "inferior" codec into the far more expensive F3 !?!

It's also a question of technology. Both they and Panasonic wanted a pro/consumer solid state based format, using consumer (SDHC) memory. The use of SDHC via adaptors in an EX proved it was possible to reliably get 35Mbs onto such - but only when selecting carefully brands of cards etc. Using the lower data rate takes all those hassles away for a manufacturer - and gives longer recording time as well.

They could have put a very high spec H264 coder into the NXCAM range - similar to those used for broadcast transmission - but they alone currently cost many times what the NXCAM cameras cost! In the meantime, they (sensibly) don't. The 2x MPEG2 efficiency remains a goal, achievable only via extremely expensive kit, or non-real time software encoding.

Peter D. Parker · December 24th, 2011, 03:56 AM

Hi Duncan, and others, thanks for the replies.

I already have a Canon 550 with a nice selection of lenses but I've not had time to get into the workflow for movies yet, so the larger chip and DOF are there if I need them.

I suppose cost is a major factor. My Z1 and Z5, although not having a lot of hours on them, will, soon I think need replacing, so now is the time whilst they still have value. If I was to wait, it will cost me more in the long run.

NO, I don't use "page turns" etc in Matrox, but I like the preset, like the colour effects, I also have Magic Bullets, so I'm definately not one of the "Cheesy Brigade". I do like the real time output to tv with the Matrox, so I have two editing monitors. I've tried using the preview monitor but it's so small, even on a 17" monitor and if you were to suggest getting a larger monitor, that's more expense.

Keep the info coming, although I don't want to start an EX v FS100 war !!

Merry Christmas everybody.
Peter

Les Wilson · December 24th, 2011, 06:12 AM

Here's a blog with loads of information about the EX cameras from Alister Chapman who posts around here often: XDCAM-USER.COM | Alisters XDCAM blog and cinematography resource.

Also, there's tons of discussion here on DVinfo comparing and contrasting the FS-100 with various cameras including the EX1R. Bottom line IMHO is they are different tools.

December 23rd, 2011, 03:21 PM	#16
Duncan Craig Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 660 Images: 10	Re: Ex1r? Peter, you seem to have already set your mind on EX. But choosing a camera based on your editing system is daft. Particularly when you can easily transcode footage between codecs. Realtime effects? You're not talking about starwipes and dodgy home movie stuff are you? You've said you want to be creative? If you are a hobbyist, why bother with a camera like this. Look around for reels shot on EX's versus DSLRs etc, and you'll see a lot more creativity or 'art' anyway, showing up in the latter. What an EX gives you over an FS100 or similar: Slightly sharper video. A poor servo zoom (Zooms shots are only used sparingly in professional production, rather like auto focus). Ability to operating handheld for longer running times. But Can you deal with the EX lenses lens problems? Are you happy to use expensive batteries? You'll need an IR filter to fix the IR contamination that all AX's suffer from! It's a heavy camera compared to a Z1! FYI An FS100 with the kit 18-200 lens seems to have amazing autofocus. For the record the AVCHD codec has proven to be really really good. And often deemed twice as efficient as XDCAM EX. Yes it perhaps has to be transcoded, but you aren't working to a deadline are you? I'm only spending my time writing this, as I really think an EX will offer you very very little. I only got rid of my Z1 recently, I still loved the handling, the weight, the smooth ramping zoom etc etc. Sure its old tech, but 1080p is just sharper video, and 1/2 inch is still a tiny sensor. An EX1 suits my regular commercial work where I need to move fast, hand operate on a jib, and run HDSDI. But a FS100 (for example) would be my choice of camera to shoot everything else. TBH I'm going to hold out for an FS200 perhaps it'll have a fully articulating screen and HDSDI. Duncan. __________________ FCPX/LS300/EX1/FS100/GoPro/Vinten/HotHead/Jib/Track/Dedos/Lightstorm/Coollights

December 23rd, 2011, 06:24 PM	#18
Duncan Craig Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 660 Images: 10	Re: Ex1r? So the FS100's 24Mbps ACVHD is worse than an EX1's 35Mbps XDCAM EX And that it's no better than HDV? Wow, Sony have really dropped the ball then! __________________ FCPX/LS300/EX1/FS100/GoPro/Vinten/HotHead/Jib/Track/Dedos/Lightstorm/Coollights

December 23rd, 2011, 06:35 PM	#19
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: Ex1r? Peter, contrary to what Duncan implies, people with EX1Rs do creative and artistic work. Example: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/ex-serie...ml#post1704170

December 23rd, 2011, 07:24 PM	#20
Duncan Craig Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 660 Images: 10	Re: Ex1r? Um hold on Les. I didn't imply that you cannot be creative with an EX1. I think I make OK pictures with mine which appears on upwards of 1000 television commercial a year in the UK. Burgess Pet Care's Supadog Dog Food makes TV Debut! - YouTube Bill Plant Driving School, National TV Advertisement - YouTube Go Outdoors - Drama - You Tube GO Outdoors TV Ad 23/05 - YouTube Coral Windows TV Advert Oct2011 - YouTube Views of Holy Island - Anglesey, North Wales - YouTube OneCall - TV Commercial - YouTube What I'm suggesting is that if you go hunting on Vimeo for interesting experimental, edgy, arty, cool, short films and promos, there are more being made on DSLR type stuff. Why? Price, size, low light and accessibility I suppose. SDOF is the flavour right now for sure of course too. An EX1 is a workhorse for sure, but it's no fun. Duncan. __________________ FCPX/LS300/EX1/FS100/GoPro/Vinten/HotHead/Jib/Track/Dedos/Lightstorm/Coollights

December 23rd, 2011, 10:17 PM	#21
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: Ex1r? I have to disagree. The EX1R is a blast. It's my 5D mark 2 that's a pain in the neck. DSLRs make pretty much everything harder to do, take longer, and need a bunch of extra gear to be functional.

December 24th, 2011, 03:56 AM	#23
Peter D. Parker Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Preston England Posts: 147	Re: Ex1r? Hi Duncan, and others, thanks for the replies. I already have a Canon 550 with a nice selection of lenses but I've not had time to get into the workflow for movies yet, so the larger chip and DOF are there if I need them. I suppose cost is a major factor. My Z1 and Z5, although not having a lot of hours on them, will, soon I think need replacing, so now is the time whilst they still have value. If I was to wait, it will cost me more in the long run. NO, I don't use "page turns" etc in Matrox, but I like the preset, like the colour effects, I also have Magic Bullets, so I'm definately not one of the "Cheesy Brigade". I do like the real time output to tv with the Matrox, so I have two editing monitors. I've tried using the preview monitor but it's so small, even on a 17" monitor and if you were to suggest getting a larger monitor, that's more expense. Keep the info coming, although I don't want to start an EX v FS100 war !! Merry Christmas everybody. Peter

December 24th, 2011, 06:12 AM	#24
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: Ex1r? Here's a blog with loads of information about the EX cameras from Alister Chapman who posts around here often: XDCAM-USER.COM \| Alisters XDCAM blog and cinematography resource. Also, there's tons of discussion here on DVinfo comparing and contrasting the FS-100 with various cameras including the EX1R. Bottom line IMHO is they are different tools.