Aliasing problem Sony PMWEX1R

David Knaggs · October 11th, 2010, 06:50 PM

Thanks very much to Olof and Doug for those workflows.

Olof: Yes, I edit in an XDCAM EX 1080p25 sequence with the rendering always set to ProRes. I exported a 90 minute sequence as a reference movie and it's currently being compressed by the BitVice Demo which I downloaded. I've earlier compressed this sequence into a DVD using Compressor, so it will give me a nice basis for comparison.

Doug: I'll also try your method and compare. My concern in all of this is how well 1080p scales down to the 576 lines of PAL, as opposed to how well 1080p downscales to the 480 lines of NTSC.

I'm currently making a number of training videos for a client whose training facilities are currently standard definition, but will be upgraded in some months to Blu-ray and 1080p plasma. So I have to master in 1080p for the future Blu-ray, but currently deliver in SD.

I now think there is definitely something to what Alister says about 720p scaling better (than 1080p) into the 576 lines of PAL. I spent years shooting HDV 720p25 (with a JVC GY-HD100 series camera) and got marvellous results exporting directly via Compressor into a PAL DVD. The results of 1080p25 via Compressor into a PAL DVD have left me far less enthralled. So I'm definitely "all ears" to anyone who suggests an alternate workflow. I'm in the mood to test anything right now!

And finally, to Steve: Don't worry. I never burn a DVD while testing. And I doubt many others do, either. The Build step of DVD Studio Pro produces a VIDEO_TS folder which I simply drag over to the DVD Player in the dock and I can review it there. (And I also produce a .img file during the Format step so I can do a final double-check before I burn the .img file to a DVD-R using the Disk Utility application.)

Leonard Levy · October 12th, 2010, 12:07 AM

I didn't read everything in this thrread so I might be repeating something someone else said, but it seems like you have 2 issues -

#1 - Is a non issue - seeing aliasing when looking at images in Final Cut when they are sized small- don't worry

#2 Bad SD DVD downconverts used too have lots of action on this board when the camera came out and lots of people had problems. I spent some time at it then setled on this workflow and DVD's look great.

----------------------------------------------------
EX-1 HD> SD DVD’s final results ( I think these were my good settings)

1. Edit in EX1 Native Sequence, PAL or NTSC
2. Set Renders > Go to "Sequence Settings >Render Control>Codec>Apple ProRes 422 (HDV XDCAM HD/EX only)."

( Some people may very slightly blur their EX-1 file or add a flicker filter which does something similar if they feel the DVD comes out too sharp and has aliasing as a result. I didn't find the need to do that)
----------------------------------------

3. Export to “Quicktime for self-contained movie” - Pro Res 422 > This makes a final Pro Res version > Then bring this file to Compressor
OR Export directly from FCP timeline to Compressor ( I do this)

4. In Compressor Select “ DVD Best Quality (90 unless it is longer)
- Copy the "MPEG-2" 6.2 Mbps 2 pass file and change these settings by double clicking and opening the Inspector (When finished name and save this compressor setting)

6. click "Encoder" icon and go through the icons
Under "Quality" tab
-choose bit rates, ( the defaults are prob OK)
-"Two pass VBR Best"
-*IMPORTANT select "Motion Estimation >Better."
(There used to be a bug if you picked Best that ruined the encoding I don’t know if its still there but it works fine at Better.)

Under "Frame Controls"
-Frame Controls "On."
- "Resize Filter "Better (Linear filter).
- CHANGE "Output Fields to "Progressive" (if its a progressive timeline)
-Leave deinterlace to Fast (Line averaging),
- "Adaptive Details" box checked. *Leave other settings *as is.

Be prepared for long renders.

7. Proceed to make DVD in DVDSP (you will also need to make the audio file in compressor) for DVDSP

Leonard Levy · October 12th, 2010, 12:10 AM

By the way that was in Final Cut Studio 2 so the newer compressor could be a little different and the "BEST" motion estimation bug should be fixed by now I presume.

Stephen Armour · October 15th, 2010, 01:07 PM

This has been an interesting thread.

We are gearing up for further production with an EX1R and were wondering if this down-vert to DVD prob has surfaced with anyone using a Cineform workflow and EX output?

We have not faced it up until now, but certainly would like to insure that continues. We master everything in 1920x1080p for future flexibility, but like most here are still outputting everything mostly to DVD for general consumption.

Tnx for any comments

Robert Young · October 17th, 2010, 02:50 PM

Stephen
IMO, if you have EX1r sourced CFHD.avi 1920 30p masters, you are about as bulletproof as one can be.
With good transcoders you can go anywhere with that- DVD 60i, BD 60i, Web 30p- no fuss, no muss.
Even AME in CS5 does a very good job of producing all of these delivery formats from CFHD 30p.

Stephen Armour · October 18th, 2010, 07:57 AM

Thanks Robert, I was hoping you'd chime in here! I know you have an EX1R, so was fishing for any indications these fine line aliasing probs would affect CF users. I can't imagine they would, but could have overlooked something CF's wavelet conversion didn't cure...

Sure do love the EX1R. Cameras come and cameras go, but this guy is one classic we'll remember fondly for a long time, even when we've get a "24K, 3D smellavision superwonder" someday (if I can still smell by then)!

Now if we could just swing buying a Nanoflash and new Steadicam, we'd be in short-lived cineheaven for a bit!

Robert Young · October 18th, 2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Armour

Sure do love the EX1R. Cameras come and cameras go, but this guy is one classic we'll remember fondly for a long time.

The EX cameras are magic indeed.
I just wish they would lose a little weight :)

Les Wilson · September 9th, 2011, 08:21 PM

Hmmm, I've been using the workflow of copying the edited XDCAM timeline to an SD DV timeline with interlace NONE for DVDs. On a lark, I went from FCP 7 to a self contained XDCAM file and then used Compressor (Best Quality in 90 minutes) to create the .m2v files. I didn't see aliasing. On a lark, I tried the 3 workflows I've read here (DV, Prores, Blur filter) and they all look the same as the XDCAM: No Aliasing.

I looked all through my clip and magnified various stills but the XDCAM to m2v is as good as the others as far as aliasing and a bit better than the DV and Blur Filter versions in clarity. Has compressor been fixed by some chance? Is anyone else seeing this?

October 15th, 2010, 01:07 PM	#19
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	This has been an interesting thread. We are gearing up for further production with an EX1R and were wondering if this down-vert to DVD prob has surfaced with anyone using a Cineform workflow and EX output? We have not faced it up until now, but certainly would like to insure that continues. We master everything in 1920x1080p for future flexibility, but like most here are still outputting everything mostly to DVD for general consumption. Tnx for any comments __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"

October 17th, 2010, 02:50 PM	#20
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	Stephen IMO, if you have EX1r sourced CFHD.avi 1920 30p masters, you are about as bulletproof as one can be. With good transcoders you can go anywhere with that- DVD 60i, BD 60i, Web 30p- no fuss, no muss. Even AME in CS5 does a very good job of producing all of these delivery formats from CFHD 30p. __________________ Bob

October 18th, 2010, 07:57 AM	#21
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	Thanks Robert, I was hoping you'd chime in here! I know you have an EX1R, so was fishing for any indications these fine line aliasing probs would affect CF users. I can't imagine they would, but could have overlooked something CF's wavelet conversion didn't cure... Sure do love the EX1R. Cameras come and cameras go, but this guy is one classic we'll remember fondly for a long time, even when we've get a "24K, 3D smellavision superwonder" someday (if I can still smell by then)! Now if we could just swing buying a Nanoflash and new Steadicam, we'd be in short-lived cineheaven for a bit! __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"

September 9th, 2011, 08:21 PM	#23
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: Aliasing problem Sony PMWEX1R Hmmm, I've been using the workflow of copying the edited XDCAM timeline to an SD DV timeline with interlace NONE for DVDs. On a lark, I went from FCP 7 to a self contained XDCAM file and then used Compressor (Best Quality in 90 minutes) to create the .m2v files. I didn't see aliasing. On a lark, I tried the 3 workflows I've read here (DV, Prores, Blur filter) and they all look the same as the XDCAM: No Aliasing. I looked all through my clip and magnified various stills but the XDCAM to m2v is as good as the others as far as aliasing and a bit better than the DV and Blur Filter versions in clarity. Has compressor been fixed by some chance? Is anyone else seeing this? Attached Thumbnails

October 11th, 2010, 06:50 PM	#16
David Knaggs Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 826	Thanks very much to Olof and Doug for those workflows. Olof: Yes, I edit in an XDCAM EX 1080p25 sequence with the rendering always set to ProRes. I exported a 90 minute sequence as a reference movie and it's currently being compressed by the BitVice Demo which I downloaded. I've earlier compressed this sequence into a DVD using Compressor, so it will give me a nice basis for comparison. Doug: I'll also try your method and compare. My concern in all of this is how well 1080p scales down to the 576 lines of PAL, as opposed to how well 1080p downscales to the 480 lines of NTSC. I'm currently making a number of training videos for a client whose training facilities are currently standard definition, but will be upgraded in some months to Blu-ray and 1080p plasma. So I have to master in 1080p for the future Blu-ray, but currently deliver in SD. I now think there is definitely something to what Alister says about 720p scaling better (than 1080p) into the 576 lines of PAL. I spent years shooting HDV 720p25 (with a JVC GY-HD100 series camera) and got marvellous results exporting directly via Compressor into a PAL DVD. The results of 1080p25 via Compressor into a PAL DVD have left me far less enthralled. So I'm definitely "all ears" to anyone who suggests an alternate workflow. I'm in the mood to test anything right now! And finally, to Steve: Don't worry. I never burn a DVD while testing. And I doubt many others do, either. The Build step of DVD Studio Pro produces a VIDEO_TS folder which I simply drag over to the DVD Player in the dock and I can review it there. (And I also produce a .img file during the Format step so I can do a final double-check before I burn the .img file to a DVD-R using the Disk Utility application.)

October 12th, 2010, 12:07 AM	#17
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	I didn't read everything in this thrread so I might be repeating something someone else said, but it seems like you have 2 issues - #1 - Is a non issue - seeing aliasing when looking at images in Final Cut when they are sized small- don't worry #2 Bad SD DVD downconverts used too have lots of action on this board when the camera came out and lots of people had problems. I spent some time at it then setled on this workflow and DVD's look great. ---------------------------------------------------- EX-1 HD> SD DVD’s final results ( I think these were my good settings) 1. Edit in EX1 Native Sequence, PAL or NTSC 2. Set Renders > Go to "Sequence Settings >Render Control>Codec>Apple ProRes 422 (HDV XDCAM HD/EX only)." ( Some people may very slightly blur their EX-1 file or add a flicker filter which does something similar if they feel the DVD comes out too sharp and has aliasing as a result. I didn't find the need to do that) ---------------------------------------- 3. Export to “Quicktime for self-contained movie” - Pro Res 422 > This makes a final Pro Res version > Then bring this file to Compressor OR Export directly from FCP timeline to Compressor ( I do this) 4. In Compressor Select “ DVD Best Quality (90 unless it is longer) - Copy the "MPEG-2" 6.2 Mbps 2 pass file and change these settings by double clicking and opening the Inspector (When finished name and save this compressor setting) 6. click "Encoder" icon and go through the icons Under "Quality" tab -choose bit rates, ( the defaults are prob OK) -"Two pass VBR Best" -IMPORTANT select "Motion Estimation >Better." (There used to be a bug if you picked Best that ruined the encoding I don’t know if its still there but it works fine at Better.) Under "Frame Controls" -Frame Controls "On." - "Resize Filter "Better (Linear filter). - CHANGE "Output Fields to "Progressive" (if its a progressive timeline) -Leave deinterlace to Fast (Line averaging), - "Adaptive Details" box checked. Leave other settings *as is. Be prepared for long renders. 7. Proceed to make DVD in DVDSP (you will also need to make the audio file in compressor) for DVDSP

October 12th, 2010, 12:10 AM	#18
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	By the way that was in Final Cut Studio 2 so the newer compressor could be a little different and the "BEST" motion estimation bug should be fixed by now I presume.