Market is heating up again - Trade in your EX for a cheap Varicam

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

Don't give up your EX, just pick up an old BetaSP on ebay for a couple of hundred and use that to get the discount.

Now I realise what the trade in involves, that is obviously the thing to do if you want a 2700! And if you didn't then want an EX, sell it privately for a great deal more than you paid for the old BetaSP....... !

Under those circumstances, it may be a very good deal - but if you're thinking of trading in a late model DigiBeta, it's nowhere near such a good offer as it may first appear.

[Tim Polster]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

Why would you pay Pana to downgrade from a 1080 camcorder to an out of date 720P one ;-) Especially with IBC just around the corner.

Alister, I surprised to read this comment. While the chip resolution is different, the internal processing of the HPX-2700 should not be dismissed.

After seeing this camera and the HPX-2100 (same chips) a lot on the Discovery and National Geographic channels, these cameras create beautiful images. A more refined image than I can get out of my EX-1 with Nano imho.

I read the show "Expedition Great White" on National Geogrphic HD was shot on HPX-2100s and after watching was quite impressed by the excellent color, lattitude and detail.

It is three times the price though!

[Steve Phillipps]

It's a lot more than that Tim, 3x the price for body only, another £3000 for viewfinder, and then anything from £7,000 - 20,000 for a lens.
But I've always said that this tells its own story - why would production companies making blue chip wildlife series spend all that money for a mere 720 camera when they could have a bunch of EX3s. They're also lighter, less battery-hungry, smaller chips so more telephoto reach. These producers must be nuts, despite the fact that they are some of the most experienced wildlife producers in the world - people like Alister Fothergil, former head of the Natural History Unit, series producer on Blue Planet, Planet Earth and countless others, what did he choose for his latest mega-series Frozen Planet? Not EX3s that's for sure! Could have saved himself a fortune and had better picture quality apparently, still I'm sure he'll learn eventually.
Steve

[Steve Phillipps]

Sorry, I did rise to the bait after all - I'm ashamed of myself! :-(

Let's hope Panny or someone else brings out a 1080/60P 2/3" CCD camera for £20k at IBC and then we can stop having this (rather fun) debate.

Steve

[Andrew Stone]

It may happen Steve. About 6 months ago (going from memory here), some high positioned Panasonic executive made an off-handed statement, something to the effect, that the days of the expensive ENG cameras were coming to a close and the sweet spot was going to be in the $15,000 range.

If someone has a link to an article with that statement in it, that would be great.

Myself, I'm not picking up a Varicam of that vintage. It's truly at the end of it's life cycle. It is interesting though that last year around this time, the same promotional offer was made but the EX cameras were NOT on the list.

I do agree with some of the sentiments here that one cannot be dismissive of the Varicam. It has produced some truly remarkable footage that we all seen over the past decade. The paint controls in those puppies are pretty amazing. I simply draw your attention to the material that probably most of us saw during the Olympics back in February, all shot on Panny gear and I bet the vast majority of it was on Varicams.

[Alister Chapman]

I think the ball park will change forever at IBC. Panasonic, Canon and Sony are all rumoured to be working on new small cameras with big sensors as well as more traditional cameras using improved technologies. The fierce competition at the lower end of the market is producing some very good cameras from all of the above. 3rd parties (Convergent Design, AJA etc) are bringing out recorders capable of almost lossless recording and it's getting harder and harder to eek out small improvements in image quality at 1920x1080.

I think the next year to 18 months will see a big sideways change in video acquisition away from traditional 2/3" shoulder mount cameras to big sensor cameras for Documentaries and Narrative work while small handy-cams become even more prevalent for news gathering. The Canon DSLR's opened everyones eyes to what is possible with a big sensor and the original EX1 showed how good a small camera can be. The traditional 2/3" shoulder mount will still have a place as the ergonomics do work well in many situations, but I don't think it will be the de-facto standard in years to come, instead we will have a more segmented market with different tools for different jobs as opposed to one-fits-all.

My original comment was somewhat tongue in cheek hence the ;-) Besides which we don't know what the HPX-3100 is like yet, might be a much better deal than a 2700.

[Tim Polster]

I see. I did not compute the tounge in cheekness.

The EX-1 and like form factors do create nice images, but in my opinion they are horrible to hand hold. These mid sized small cameras are in an middle ground of tripod only to some extent.

I hope the industry comes to grips with this as these camera like the EX-1 are too big and heavy to be called handycams. Sure they are small (ish) but at least a shoulder mount can be shot properly without a tripod. I feel like I need a third arm when hand holding the EX-1

I do not doubt that you are correct Alister, but the manufacturers better be prepared to lower prices even more if we need to have a camera for each situation. People just can not afford that approach in today's I-phone/youtube world.

[Steve Phillipps]

[QUOTE=Alister Chapman;1564891
My original comment was somewhat tongue in cheek hence the ;-) [/QUOTE]

I know, my responses were too I hope!

Andrew, interesting idea that the HPX2700 is a "Varicam of that vintage", it's only about 2 years old!!!

Steve

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

I hope the industry comes to grips with this as these camera like the EX-1 are too big and heavy to be called handycams. Sure they are small (ish) but at least a shoulder mount can be shot properly without a tripod. I feel like I need a third arm when hand holding the EX-1

Two things here.

First, I find the use of the word "properly" to be extremely dismissive. Second, the problem with heavier shoulder mount cameras is that they make it exceedingly difficult to do shot's OFF the shoulder with motion. They lock you into a POV shot, because that's where they are intended to be used. If I want a chest high POV, or a waist high POV or an 8ft high POV, they are practically useless.

The great benefit of the "handycam" format is that it's a flexible tool. If you need predominately a shoulder mount camera, set up a shoulder rig. If you need something more mobile, set that up. If you want a steadicam shot, you don't need to hire an operator with a full vest to get 10 seconds.

When I moved away from the shoulder cameras I knew I'd never be going back, and I haven't missed it one bit. But then, I don't do the nightly news. It's funny, I was speaking to a local NBC correspondent last week. She had recently moved to town from another larger market and was covering an event I was shooting on the EX1. I asked what camera she was shooting having noted it was a large unit and she had it on sticks. It was a big Panasonic. She said that in her previous larger market they had moved away from those "dinosaurs" as she called it.

She was trying to cover a sporting event solo, and grab some interviews. A highly dynamic sport, and she was relegated to sticks or putting the camera on the floor because it was just to heavy, large, and awkward for her to get the kind of dynamic shot she really wanted. To her credit, she tried. And I saw about 3 seconds worth of that in her nightly story.

If you do things the same way you've always done them, expect the same results you've always had...

[Simon Denny]

Give me CCD, 2/3" chip, Eng body and full raster 1920x1080, 4:2:2, 50mbps for under 30K
Has to be possible.

Sony?

[Steve Phillipps]

That's more or less the PDW700. What we need is 1080/60P.
Steve

[Simon Denny]

Yeah I know but the PDW 700 is over 49k Aussie dollars and 50p for us here would be great.

[Tim Polster]

I don't disagree with you Perrone. My wording was not chosen as well as it could have been.

I am stuck in the middle. Operating a larger camera on sticks gives me better movement because the camera has its own inertia. You use larger muscles and you have more control over smaller movements because overall the movement is more broad.

Operating a larger camera on shoulder lets you move your left hand around to adjust things while filming without as much risk of moving the camera.

Operating a smaller camera on a tripod to me is like tip toeing. You have such small spaces to find buttons, larger tripods are akward so you end up using a lighter rig and your touch of the camera has a lot more impact on the stability of the rig. Plus lenses for the smaller cameras tend to have less smooth & precise motors for zoom controls.

Operating a camera like the EX-1 handheld is what I was referencing with the "properly" comment. When I say properly I mean when I handhold the EX-1, I need to use both hands to support the weight or stability of the camera. I find myself sacrificing adjustment because if I take my left hand away the camera will slump. In my view, if a small camera is to be hand held one still needs to be able to take a hand away to adjust things and not risk a rotating camera.

Now when I handhold the HMC-150 it is light enough that between my right hand and the viewfinder and can keep stability and adjust audio levels.

Your right, for specialty shots the smaller cameras work better. I guess it depends upon how often you need those type of shots and also to what level they need to be done at. If you are shooting something very important then even with the small size you might think the handoldy look is still too rough.

I always come back to the JVC design of its last two generations. To me it is is the perfect mix of all of what I have mentioned here. It is too bad the other manufacturers have not embraced that design.

I am not expecting anything earth shattering in the near term for new cameras. The world economy has such a tenuous outlook that I think large gambles or investments are going to be on hold. If one looks at Sony's line of cameras, where would they add a new model? There only move is to offer rebates to get people to buy. They have all of the chip sizes covered.

The large chip models will arrive but I don't know how often a non-servo driven lens would be used in my work so those cameras might not be on my radar.

I will be watching as always though.

[Perrone Ford]

Tim, I think background has EVERYTHING to do with this.

Clearly, your needs, desires, and experience comes from broadcast. This aligns well with Panasonic's marketing, and targeting of their cameras. Camera's that are used in a "broadcast" way feel normal and right to you.

I come from a narrative background, and everything about the broadcast style cameras feels wrong to me. We don't touch the cameras when the record button is on. We don't "hand-hold". We only pan on rare occasions. there's no such thing as a servo-zoom or auto focus. Other manufactures hit this target better. Panasonic has lagged behind here traditionally.

I don't think this is good or bad. Different tools for different people/uses. But if you note the comments here from those more in tune with the Sony products, you'll see how comfortable they are with them. They simply use the tool differently.

JVC has tried to ride the fence, but they have no presence really in the narrative market, and are well behind both Sony and Panasonic in broadcast. They've made several strange decisions with their cameras that I feel has relegated them to staying behind the market leaders. I have no idea what Canon is doing in the video segment. Their stills division is doing better video than the video division. I can only imagine how the corporate meetings are going at this point.

If you want to know where Sony goes, I can tell you what I think... I think Sony takes m43 upmarket, moves 1/2" down market, and gets S35 or full frame into narrative cameras. That's where the growth for them is right now professionally.

[Tim Polster]

Good points.