Tiffen T1 - I am impressed

Anthony Nalli · July 1st, 2010, 01:35 PM

If the T1 IS going to remain part of my kit then I think I need to return the 77 mm version and go for a 4 x 5.65. I don't see dismantling everything should the need to use the T1 arise. I'd much rather just slide it in.

Anthony Nalli · July 1st, 2010, 01:49 PM

Wait a sec. Let me rethink my last post...

If the issue is made worse with the use of ND, I shoot mostly outdoors and will therefore USE ND, then instead of plunking down another $300 on a 4 x 5.65 T1, maybe I SHOULD try the Schneider Platinum IRND 4 x 5.65.

In theory (I wish I was able to find more to read about its ACTUAL use) this should eliminate the risk of the red issue and the Platinum IRND (vs. just the IR) is said to be color neutral.

With that, I'm outdoors using built-in ND, I see off-blacks, I slide in the Platinum IRND .3 and fix the blacks, retain the ND (adding another layer if I need/want it) and no green tint.

Sound like the ideal solution?

Anthony Nalli · July 1st, 2010, 02:06 PM

Hmm. If it IS the solution, the only place I can even find part number 68-060356 (Schneider IRND .3 4 x 5.65) is at FilmTools and they aren't expecting any until mid-August. And this seems to be the only place to get them! The rare nature of this filter is making me lose confidence in it as my "perfect plan".

Dean Harrington · July 1st, 2010, 06:27 PM

these are 2 different conferences ... both speakers are wearing black suits ... the No T1 IR filter was shot before I got the T1 and the other after. There were no complaints about the brown suit so I can say I skated on that one but it made me get that filter. The second example is with the T1 IR filter and lighting in both cases were hotel conference room tungsten lights ... T1 IR had a small spot I provided for the speaker ... 5600 K LED spot to counter balance the house lights.

Anthony Nalli · July 1st, 2010, 06:29 PM

No samples attached...

Dean Harrington · July 1st, 2010, 06:35 PM

Now, these aren't perfect examples with a identical set-up but they are real world shoots. I have consistently added 5600 K spots to counter hotel lighting to speakers and find that you can control, a bit, what the camera records. Both speakers showed up as brown suits ... hence, I added the filter on the one example.
p.s. just goes to show you that these high rollers are all wearing synthetic suits!

Anthony Nalli · July 1st, 2010, 06:41 PM

No examples attached in the 2nd one either (thx for updating the 1st).

Since they're not the same image and from different perspectives (and possibly different lighting) I'm not exactly sure what to look at to compare. I DO notice, however, a fading in the image with the filter on... that may perhaps be a little greenish.

Dean Harrington · July 1st, 2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Nalli

No examples attached in the 2nd one either (thx for updating the 1st).

Since they're not the same image and from different perspectives (and possibly different lighting) I'm not exactly sure what to look at to compare. I DO notice, however, a fading in the image with the filter on... that may perhaps be a little greenish.

The situations were completely different ... but both set-ups were tungsten hotel lighting! You can nit-pick all day long on this or that difference ... I don't care. I'm providing you with examples that I have shot so that you can see the difference in real event shoots. I would love a filter that removes the IR contamination completely without any other aspect of the image being effected ... I await the day that happens!

Dean Harrington · July 1st, 2010, 06:54 PM

this example is from the same shoot as the first T1 IR filter example with the same basic problem re: synthetic black suit. Now, I have to say the background wall on that shoot had a similar tint as skin ... I like more contrast but you cannot control these situations and have to do the best you can ...

Mark OConnell · July 1st, 2010, 10:36 PM

I think the shot without the filter looks better in comparison. Odd, as I've been burned as well by blacks going muddy brown. Just the light and contrast is better in the first. Bad choice of examples if you're pro filter I think.

Bruce Rawlings · July 2nd, 2010, 12:10 AM

I think the anti filter thoughts overlook the practical issues. I have a client who has thousands of staff issued with a corporate uniform that is green. My EX1 turns the corporate colour to maroon - fit a TIR filter and the clothing stays green simple as that.

Leonard Levy · July 2nd, 2010, 10:52 PM

I haven't noticed the excessive green even after color balancing with the T1 but I haven't used it very much. My suggestion if you have that problem is very simple. Get a Lee or Rosco color swatch book that is about 2" square and add a slight green ( 1/8 or 1/4) to the lens when color balancing. That should eliminate the problem. Or simply carry a piece of 1/8 green in your bag and use it single or doubled or whatever till you get rid of the green. Problem should be solved.

In fact mixing 1/8 green & 1/4 blue is generally my favorite way to balance anyway. The predeccessor to "Warm Cards" and still a superior system in my opinion.

Re ND:
I was one of the people testing for Tiffen on the T1 and I noticed a number of things. First although I heard alot about how you needed more IR filtration with increasing ND I didn't see it when I used the T1. It seemed to solve the problem completely in my tests. Second - ordinary ND filters vary greatly in whether or not they filter IR (actually the right term is Far Red) at all. I've noticed that every internal camera ND I tested had no Far Red problems. However in looking at Tiffen, Format, Schneider, Heliopan and B&W, only my little 82mm Heliopan and B+W filters did not have Far Red problems. With the others I could see varying far red contamination with my naked eye (often alarming amounts) - regardless of the EX-1's increasing sensitivity. Obviously video camera makers were hipper to this problem than we expected.

If the Schneider Platinum is the new one for Far Red contamination I have not used it so I can't comment. (Where's my test filter Ryan????)

So test your own filters. Look at a piece of black material by eye behind your ND filters and get a piece of green gel.

And yes color balancing in camera of course reacts to green and magenta - otherwise how would we deal with Flourescents.

Lenny Levy

Dean Harrington · July 2nd, 2010, 11:23 PM

Yep ... the best to have for color balance ... but I've found the warm cards to do the trick with regard to this filter and well ... other situations.

Anthony Nalli · July 2nd, 2010, 11:28 PM

Help me see if I understand this right Leonard (and I may not, so please bear with me). Is the idea of white balancing through the 1/8 green a sort of "overcompensation" so that when the 1/8 green is removed the green tint of the T1 has been effectively "balanced out"?

Anthony

Leonard Levy · July 3rd, 2010, 09:53 PM

Yes it is a common ancient videographers trick. Warm Cards picked up on the idea and marketed it without the flexibility of mixing green and blue. Everyone I know carries a swatchbook.

In fact many Sony video cameras used to have a tendency toward green and under flourescents I would always balance through an additional green. Still like to mix a blue and green for balancing toward a nice warm look.

Lenny

July 1st, 2010, 06:27 PM	#49
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	Real world example T1 IR/No T1 IR ... these are 2 different conferences ... both speakers are wearing black suits ... the No T1 IR filter was shot before I got the T1 and the other after. There were no complaints about the brown suit so I can say I skated on that one but it made me get that filter. The second example is with the T1 IR filter and lighting in both cases were hotel conference room tungsten lights ... T1 IR had a small spot I provided for the speaker ... 5600 K LED spot to counter balance the house lights. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Sony EX3, Panasonic DVX 100, SG Blade, Nanoflash, FCP 7, MacBookPro intel. http://www.deanharringtonvisual.com/

July 1st, 2010, 06:35 PM	#51
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	examples ... Now, these aren't perfect examples with a identical set-up but they are real world shoots. I have consistently added 5600 K spots to counter hotel lighting to speakers and find that you can control, a bit, what the camera records. Both speakers showed up as brown suits ... hence, I added the filter on the one example. p.s. just goes to show you that these high rollers are all wearing synthetic suits! __________________ Sony EX3, Panasonic DVX 100, SG Blade, Nanoflash, FCP 7, MacBookPro intel. http://www.deanharringtonvisual.com/

July 1st, 2010, 06:54 PM	#54
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	2nd example ... this example is from the same shoot as the first T1 IR filter example with the same basic problem re: synthetic black suit. Now, I have to say the background wall on that shoot had a similar tint as skin ... I like more contrast but you cannot control these situations and have to do the best you can ... Attached Thumbnails __________________ Sony EX3, Panasonic DVX 100, SG Blade, Nanoflash, FCP 7, MacBookPro intel. http://www.deanharringtonvisual.com/

July 1st, 2010, 10:36 PM	#55
Mark OConnell Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 420	I think the shot without the filter looks better in comparison. Odd, as I've been burned as well by blacks going muddy brown. Just the light and contrast is better in the first. Bad choice of examples if you're pro filter I think. __________________ http://www.markoconnell.org Last edited by Mark OConnell; July 1st, 2010 at 10:37 PM. Reason: redundancy

July 2nd, 2010, 11:23 PM	#58
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	Lee or Rosco color swatch book ... Yep ... the best to have for color balance ... but I've found the warm cards to do the trick with regard to this filter and well ... other situations. __________________ Sony EX3, Panasonic DVX 100, SG Blade, Nanoflash, FCP 7, MacBookPro intel. http://www.deanharringtonvisual.com/

July 1st, 2010, 01:35 PM	#46
Anthony Nalli Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	If the T1 IS going to remain part of my kit then I think I need to return the 77 mm version and go for a 4 x 5.65. I don't see dismantling everything should the need to use the T1 arise. I'd much rather just slide it in.

July 1st, 2010, 01:49 PM	#47
Anthony Nalli Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	Wait a sec. Let me rethink my last post... If the issue is made worse with the use of ND, I shoot mostly outdoors and will therefore USE ND, then instead of plunking down another $300 on a 4 x 5.65 T1, maybe I SHOULD try the Schneider Platinum IRND 4 x 5.65. In theory (I wish I was able to find more to read about its ACTUAL use) this should eliminate the risk of the red issue and the Platinum IRND (vs. just the IR) is said to be color neutral. With that, I'm outdoors using built-in ND, I see off-blacks, I slide in the Platinum IRND .3 and fix the blacks, retain the ND (adding another layer if I need/want it) and no green tint. Sound like the ideal solution?

July 1st, 2010, 02:06 PM	#48
Anthony Nalli Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	Hmm. If it IS the solution, the only place I can even find part number 68-060356 (Schneider IRND .3 4 x 5.65) is at FilmTools and they aren't expecting any until mid-August. And this seems to be the only place to get them! The rare nature of this filter is making me lose confidence in it as my "perfect plan".

July 1st, 2010, 06:29 PM	#50
Anthony Nalli Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	No samples attached...

July 1st, 2010, 06:41 PM	#52
Anthony Nalli Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	No examples attached in the 2nd one either (thx for updating the 1st). Since they're not the same image and from different perspectives (and possibly different lighting) I'm not exactly sure what to look at to compare. I DO notice, however, a fading in the image with the filter on... that may perhaps be a little greenish.

July 2nd, 2010, 12:10 AM	#56
Bruce Rawlings Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cardiff, Wales, UK Posts: 410	I think the anti filter thoughts overlook the practical issues. I have a client who has thousands of staff issued with a corporate uniform that is green. My EX1 turns the corporate colour to maroon - fit a TIR filter and the clothing stays green simple as that.

July 2nd, 2010, 10:52 PM	#57
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	I haven't noticed the excessive green even after color balancing with the T1 but I haven't used it very much. My suggestion if you have that problem is very simple. Get a Lee or Rosco color swatch book that is about 2" square and add a slight green ( 1/8 or 1/4) to the lens when color balancing. That should eliminate the problem. Or simply carry a piece of 1/8 green in your bag and use it single or doubled or whatever till you get rid of the green. Problem should be solved. In fact mixing 1/8 green & 1/4 blue is generally my favorite way to balance anyway. The predeccessor to "Warm Cards" and still a superior system in my opinion. Re ND: I was one of the people testing for Tiffen on the T1 and I noticed a number of things. First although I heard alot about how you needed more IR filtration with increasing ND I didn't see it when I used the T1. It seemed to solve the problem completely in my tests. Second - ordinary ND filters vary greatly in whether or not they filter IR (actually the right term is Far Red) at all. I've noticed that every internal camera ND I tested had no Far Red problems. However in looking at Tiffen, Format, Schneider, Heliopan and B&W, only my little 82mm Heliopan and B+W filters did not have Far Red problems. With the others I could see varying far red contamination with my naked eye (often alarming amounts) - regardless of the EX-1's increasing sensitivity. Obviously video camera makers were hipper to this problem than we expected. If the Schneider Platinum is the new one for Far Red contamination I have not used it so I can't comment. (Where's my test filter Ryan????) So test your own filters. Look at a piece of black material by eye behind your ND filters and get a piece of green gel. And yes color balancing in camera of course reacts to green and magenta - otherwise how would we deal with Flourescents. Lenny Levy

July 2nd, 2010, 11:28 PM	#59
Anthony Nalli Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 53	Help me see if I understand this right Leonard (and I may not, so please bear with me). Is the idea of white balancing through the 1/8 green a sort of "overcompensation" so that when the 1/8 green is removed the green tint of the T1 has been effectively "balanced out"? Anthony

July 3rd, 2010, 09:53 PM	#60
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Yes it is a common ancient videographers trick. Warm Cards picked up on the idea and marketed it without the flexibility of mixing green and blue. Everyone I know carries a swatchbook. In fact many Sony video cameras used to have a tendency toward green and under flourescents I would always balance through an additional green. Still like to mix a blue and green for balancing toward a nice warm look. Lenny