EX3 Is it me or the internet ??

Frank Casanova · April 20th, 2010, 08:36 PM

Right you are Doug... Tried to do an airshow with the EX1 and this operator had one heck of a time trying to keep up while hand holding the camera... The only time the EX1 was not the right tool for me.

Tim Polster · April 20th, 2010, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Parrish

Thanks Doug, it is obviously my computer. even your video has slight hesitations that i can visibly see. I updated flashplayer and same thing. the video appears to load ahead of the player well enough but the video has a very slight hesitation in places.

I have vista 64 and a core 2 duo e7500 on an asus pq5 pro with 8 gigs of ram and a pny 9800 gt 1 gig vid card, but somehow I am stuttering video. Thanks for the post I will have to look deeper into my computer.

I have been investigating this behavior on my systems as well. I see stuttering during Flash video playback. I think it has to do with Flash iteslf as my system is an i7 windows 7 box with 12bg of ram.

This is sort of driving me crazy as well. Does internet video always have stutter? Should we not expect true video playback?

This happens even after the file has been completely downloaded into the internet browser.

Any others see this?

Don Parrish · April 21st, 2010, 03:30 AM

I went through everything, new drivers, flash, I still have it.

Rob Lagerstrom · April 22nd, 2010, 10:45 AM

I read all the previous posts but I didn't see where anyone mentioned that shooting 1080p30 will exhibit a slight stutter effect even when optimized for Vimeo.

I noticed it right off on my first shoot and wondered what was going on. Before my EX-1 all I shot was SD interlaced with my Sony VX2000. So, maybe those who have been shooting Hi-def longer might have gotten used to the stutter, or are not shooting 108p30 with the shutter speed of 1/60th.

I think I am going to start going with 720p24 for normal action scenes and 720p60 for sports and the like. 1080i60 is a good format if you are going to DVD (so I am told).

My 2 cents worth, Rob

Matt Davis · April 22nd, 2010, 10:53 AM

I've been plonking video on the web for, sheesh, over 10 years now - starting off with embedding old fashioned QuickTime movies the hard way. Dealing with all that cross-platform, cross-browser rubbish.

From pretty inauspicious beginnings, Flash has given us a fairly robust platform to play back Spark, then On2, and now H.264 movies. I still preferred QuickTime playback, but just like the VHS/Beta wars, the better format lost out. Mainly because Apple started insisting in stupid things like 'Download 40 MB of iTunes before you can watch this movie that you probably won't like anyway'.

Flash is, IMHO, the root cause of this stuttering (if we leave aside the issues of watching 24p, 25p and to a lesser extent 29.97p on a 60p device), it has always been there, and despite its squeaks and judders, we accept it because 'it just works' - after a fashion.

Whilst HTML5 as a playback engine is probably a good way to go, it's not up to even Flash standards yet. I'd say 'it's the Flash based player' more than 'it's the internet'.

Tim Polster · April 22nd, 2010, 01:16 PM

Hey Matt,

If you wanted the best video playback and quality for two different situations, which file format would you choose?

1) for streaming playback

2) for full download and local playback

These would need to cover Mac & PC

I am interested in your choices. I am on a PC and the .f4v files look the best, but Windows media plays the best. I have not tested Quicktime although I thought Quicktime streamed now...

Thanks

Matt Davis · April 22nd, 2010, 03:19 PM

Okay, right now, I'm using Flash 8 (the On2 codec) for the widest compatibility, the least problems. I'm also using PC/SnowLeopard gamma. My main audience is still PC based, a lot of them behind corporate firewalls. Flash gets through, uses a widely available plugin, and doesn't need the user to upgrade to the latest and greatest (important in the corporate world where user installs are usually verboten.

Again, many of my corporate clients (especially local government) are banned from visiting YouTube, Vimeo and the like, so I regularly host video on my own server - as Progressive Download. Again, almost exclusively On2 FLV.

A couple of corporate clients require WMV, and whilst the quality can be very good, it doesn't 'do' progressive download very well. Streaming it requires a potentially costly third party server and can cause Mac users problems.

I'm seeing a slow uptake of H.264. A couple of clients want it for internal use for its compactness. Nobody's particularly desirous of iPhone/iPod versions - or iPad for that matter - but I am on the search for a good HTML5 implementation.

So really, in my corporate market, it's a case of staying about half a mile from the front line with On2 in a Flash player - not exactly stunning playback but it will do. 512x288 at 512-750kbps seems about average. The next transition will be H.264 in an HTML5 framework.

For streaming media (live streams), I have looked at Flash, but Windows Streaming Media can't be beaten for the corporate market, mainly because it's main forte is embedding cues in a live stream assuring synchronised events with no latency issues (IOW, slides change at the right time). Flash streaming is possible, but the costs involved are higher OR the reliability is lower OR the flexibility is less.

Encoding is always a bit of a bear, and it can come down to things like 2 pass spotting the bumps that can cause stutter where 1 pass doesn't, or there's predictive vs. auto keyframes (and the balance thereof), and the optimism of trying to do HD in 1 Mbit with fast camera moves, grain, non-steadied handheld footage with lots of zingy detail and oversharpened aliased edges for the codec to waste time and bitrate with.

H.264 is a mathematically complex codec. There's the amount of time it takes to pull it off storage and shove it in RAM, then there's the amount of time it takes to decode the data to a display format and whack it up on screen, and the more it's COMPRESSED, the harder it is to DECOMPRESS. There's a penalty to squeezing the video till the pips squeak. When H.264 first got out in public, my Mac couldn't handle 1280x720, and only just (JUST) did 640x360. The bandwidth wasn't at fault, it was the processing power.

Then there's the problem that computer screens do 60fps, no matter what your source footage is at, so you can see ripping or judderiness in unassisted data output. You may also be seeing the movie scaled so pixels are not mapped 1:1. Hence the reason why hardware such as the MXO is so popular. It drives the screen correctly, so what you see is what you get.

So You may wish to try this experiment with some EX3 footage, checked out as a BluRay disk or downconverted to a DVD and checked on a monitor. The slight narcolepsy that's synonymous with web video has gone.

So how do the trailers on Apple's site look so good? Darn good (and probably publically unavailable) encoding software that allows frame by frame access to keyframes and bitrate, high bitrates for a given movie size, lots of stuff like denoising, level control, bit of blur on downscales before encoding, time, more time, loads of skill, and some trickery.

Even vimeo charges you for 2 pass encodes. I like to be in control of my encodes, so I like self hosting. But YouTube is where the consumer/mass audience is, and rarely do they notice the niceties of good encoding.

BTW, don't forget the effect of, erm - is it called 'Specificity'? The idea is that if you're looking hard at the faults of the EX line on web video, suddenly the world is full of examples of it (I've published a few!). Whereas these are a fraction of a percentage of the great stuff these - and loads of other - cameras are generating.

And now my renders have finished. Sorry for the length of post...

Tim Polster · April 25th, 2010, 09:41 AM

Matt,

Thanks for your reply.

I am busy right now but would like to discuss this with you.

Any ideas on embedding Quicktime files for progressive download instead of Flash?

Matt Davis · April 25th, 2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

Any ideas on embedding Quicktime files for progressive download instead of Flash?

It's going to sound harsh if I say 'try googling it' but I too am busy. :)

I don't know your HTML, PHP or other scripting skills. A bit of googling can get you copy-paste solutions if you know about creating HTML pages at code level.

I am a bit out of practice with the old-style stuff as right now I am concentrating on the FLV/On2 delivery solutions, and prepping my own HTML5 solution.

Tim Polster · April 25th, 2010, 07:57 PM

Hey Matt,

I wasn't looking for a how to, but more of your opinion.

I thought Apple had reached a milestone recently by making quicktime progressive download friendly rather than complete download before playback.

I have googled it but a lot of the posts were from a few years ago.

I guess I'll take not much information available to mean it is not being used all that often?

April 22nd, 2010, 10:45 AM	#19
Rob Lagerstrom Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 32	stuttering video w/EX-1 I read all the previous posts but I didn't see where anyone mentioned that shooting 1080p30 will exhibit a slight stutter effect even when optimized for Vimeo. I noticed it right off on my first shoot and wondered what was going on. Before my EX-1 all I shot was SD interlaced with my Sony VX2000. So, maybe those who have been shooting Hi-def longer might have gotten used to the stutter, or are not shooting 108p30 with the shutter speed of 1/60th. I think I am going to start going with 720p24 for normal action scenes and 720p60 for sports and the like. 1080i60 is a good format if you are going to DVD (so I am told). My 2 cents worth, Rob

April 22nd, 2010, 10:53 AM	#20
Matt Davis Trustee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 1,562	I've been plonking video on the web for, sheesh, over 10 years now - starting off with embedding old fashioned QuickTime movies the hard way. Dealing with all that cross-platform, cross-browser rubbish. From pretty inauspicious beginnings, Flash has given us a fairly robust platform to play back Spark, then On2, and now H.264 movies. I still preferred QuickTime playback, but just like the VHS/Beta wars, the better format lost out. Mainly because Apple started insisting in stupid things like 'Download 40 MB of iTunes before you can watch this movie that you probably won't like anyway'. Flash is, IMHO, the root cause of this stuttering (if we leave aside the issues of watching 24p, 25p and to a lesser extent 29.97p on a 60p device), it has always been there, and despite its squeaks and judders, we accept it because 'it just works' - after a fashion. Whilst HTML5 as a playback engine is probably a good way to go, it's not up to even Flash standards yet. I'd say 'it's the Flash based player' more than 'it's the internet'. __________________ Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6

April 22nd, 2010, 03:19 PM	#22
Matt Davis Trustee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 1,562	Okay, right now, I'm using Flash 8 (the On2 codec) for the widest compatibility, the least problems. I'm also using PC/SnowLeopard gamma. My main audience is still PC based, a lot of them behind corporate firewalls. Flash gets through, uses a widely available plugin, and doesn't need the user to upgrade to the latest and greatest (important in the corporate world where user installs are usually verboten. Again, many of my corporate clients (especially local government) are banned from visiting YouTube, Vimeo and the like, so I regularly host video on my own server - as Progressive Download. Again, almost exclusively On2 FLV. A couple of corporate clients require WMV, and whilst the quality can be very good, it doesn't 'do' progressive download very well. Streaming it requires a potentially costly third party server and can cause Mac users problems. I'm seeing a slow uptake of H.264. A couple of clients want it for internal use for its compactness. Nobody's particularly desirous of iPhone/iPod versions - or iPad for that matter - but I am on the search for a good HTML5 implementation. So really, in my corporate market, it's a case of staying about half a mile from the front line with On2 in a Flash player - not exactly stunning playback but it will do. 512x288 at 512-750kbps seems about average. The next transition will be H.264 in an HTML5 framework. For streaming media (live streams), I have looked at Flash, but Windows Streaming Media can't be beaten for the corporate market, mainly because it's main forte is embedding cues in a live stream assuring synchronised events with no latency issues (IOW, slides change at the right time). Flash streaming is possible, but the costs involved are higher OR the reliability is lower OR the flexibility is less. Encoding is always a bit of a bear, and it can come down to things like 2 pass spotting the bumps that can cause stutter where 1 pass doesn't, or there's predictive vs. auto keyframes (and the balance thereof), and the optimism of trying to do HD in 1 Mbit with fast camera moves, grain, non-steadied handheld footage with lots of zingy detail and oversharpened aliased edges for the codec to waste time and bitrate with. H.264 is a mathematically complex codec. There's the amount of time it takes to pull it off storage and shove it in RAM, then there's the amount of time it takes to decode the data to a display format and whack it up on screen, and the more it's COMPRESSED, the harder it is to DECOMPRESS. There's a penalty to squeezing the video till the pips squeak. When H.264 first got out in public, my Mac couldn't handle 1280x720, and only just (JUST) did 640x360. The bandwidth wasn't at fault, it was the processing power. Then there's the problem that computer screens do 60fps, no matter what your source footage is at, so you can see ripping or judderiness in unassisted data output. You may also be seeing the movie scaled so pixels are not mapped 1:1. Hence the reason why hardware such as the MXO is so popular. It drives the screen correctly, so what you see is what you get. So You may wish to try this experiment with some EX3 footage, checked out as a BluRay disk or downconverted to a DVD and checked on a monitor. The slight narcolepsy that's synonymous with web video has gone. So how do the trailers on Apple's site look so good? Darn good (and probably publically unavailable) encoding software that allows frame by frame access to keyframes and bitrate, high bitrates for a given movie size, lots of stuff like denoising, level control, bit of blur on downscales before encoding, time, more time, loads of skill, and some trickery. Even vimeo charges you for 2 pass encodes. I like to be in control of my encodes, so I like self hosting. But YouTube is where the consumer/mass audience is, and rarely do they notice the niceties of good encoding. BTW, don't forget the effect of, erm - is it called 'Specificity'? The idea is that if you're looking hard at the faults of the EX line on web video, suddenly the world is full of examples of it (I've published a few!). Whereas these are a fraction of a percentage of the great stuff these - and loads of other - cameras are generating. And now my renders have finished. Sorry for the length of post... __________________ Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6

April 20th, 2010, 08:36 PM	#16
Frank Casanova Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 29	Right you are Doug... Tried to do an airshow with the EX1 and this operator had one heck of a time trying to keep up while hand holding the camera... The only time the EX1 was not the right tool for me.

April 21st, 2010, 03:30 AM	#18
Don Parrish Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tavares Fla Posts: 541	I went through everything, new drivers, flash, I still have it.

April 22nd, 2010, 01:16 PM	#21
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Hey Matt, If you wanted the best video playback and quality for two different situations, which file format would you choose? 1) for streaming playback 2) for full download and local playback These would need to cover Mac & PC I am interested in your choices. I am on a PC and the .f4v files look the best, but Windows media plays the best. I have not tested Quicktime although I thought Quicktime streamed now... Thanks

April 25th, 2010, 09:41 AM	#23
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Matt, Thanks for your reply. I am busy right now but would like to discuss this with you. Any ideas on embedding Quicktime files for progressive download instead of Flash?

April 25th, 2010, 07:57 PM	#25
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Hey Matt, I wasn't looking for a how to, but more of your opinion. I thought Apple had reached a milestone recently by making quicktime progressive download friendly rather than complete download before playback. I have googled it but a lot of the posts were from a few years ago. I guess I'll take not much information available to mean it is not being used all that often?