New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors

Leonard Levy · February 24th, 2010, 01:29 PM

The april filter is a combination IR + ND. The one available now is just an IR no ND - probably the more important filter for the average EX user.

Charles Newcomb · February 24th, 2010, 02:52 PM

I don't know, maybe it's my computer screen (24"iMac)... I can certainly see the red in the example before correction, but I also see green in the example after correction.

Perhaps the new IRND will fix that?

Ryan Avery · February 25th, 2010, 01:22 PM

The new Platinum IRND will not require any color balance whatsoever. The IRND.3 will probably be the best solution if you can afford the one stop of light loss.

If you can only afford 1/2 stop of light loss, then the Platinum 1/2 Stop IR filter will be the best bet.

If you can afford no light loss and shoot at less than full wide angle, then the Schneider True-Cut 680 or B+W 486 will remain the best solution from Schneider.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Gints Klimanis · January 19th, 2012, 04:50 PM

Thank you for your company support, Mr. Avery.

I did not realize that my in-camera filters would not be as good as glass. How does the IRND.3 work in conjunction with in-camera ND filters such as those of the Sony EX1? If there are any limitations, such as a green shift (?) on wide angle for the B+W 486, please let us know. The Schneider IRND.3 seems to be just the right filter for outdoor use in which I generally find the spacing of the Sony EX1 ND filters to be too great to allow me to set the camera between f/4 and f/5.6 for best sharpness .

Les Nagy · January 19th, 2012, 10:31 PM

What I don't understand is why nobody has offered replacements for ND filters interior to the EX3 with filters of this type. I spoke to one of the Schneider engineers a few years ago and thought something would be happening but after all this time... The only problem would be that you lose 1/2 stop of light permanently and possible not have correct color temp. settings in camera. But with the filters replaced it would never be an issue to forget to put it on, and not be something adding to the front of the camera, and you could change lenses without having to worry about another filter. I would pay for a replacement ND filter wheel....

I have both the Tiffen T1 and the Schneider 486 and neither is good enough but do help when there is no other choice.

Gints Klimanis · January 20th, 2012, 01:10 AM

"I have both the Tiffen T1 and the Schneider 486 and neither is good enough"

As a near customer of these filters for my EX1, I am curious about your statement. Schneider now has the Platinum IRND.3 . What do you not like about the Schneider 486? Though, I agree. I would also pay for a replacement of the EX1 ND filters. Does the EX3 have the same problem? I thought both the EX1R and EX3 were improved with IR reduction.

Les Nagy · January 20th, 2012, 01:00 PM

The 486 is good enough except when fully zoomed out. There is a green vignetting at the edges of the image. This is because the 486 is an interference filter and beyond a certain angle of incidence of the light the filter characteristics change. So the 486 is only useable zoomed beyond about 10mm if I remember correctly. This severely limits the usefulness of the filter. The other problem with all of these add on filter solutions is that none work with my wide angle adapter.

The real solution is to replace the ND filters inside the camera for these new types.

Gints Klimanis · January 20th, 2012, 02:49 PM

Les, how big is the green vignette area on a full zoom-out? 10% of frame? More?

Does the B+W 486 have the same problem as the Schneider 486? Are B+W and Schneider sharing a product or are they the same company?

Tipps u. Tricks: UV-IR Cut Filter B+W 486 , Jos. Schneider Optische Werke GmbH
B+W 486 UV-IR Cut Filter

"With increasing angle of incidence, this leads to a change in light color towards blue. This effect can clearly be seen by looking at an UV-IR barrier filter from an angle. The color of the reflected light changes, with a similar effect on the light traveling through the filter.

The filter is therefore not suitable for lens systems with
an angle of view of more than 60°"

Gints Klimanis · January 20th, 2012, 03:05 PM

I have not seen any posts on 77MM TRUE-CUT 680 IR FILTER

https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecom...=1303&IID=6947

The Schneider Optics True-Cut IR 680 is similar to the True-Cut 750 except that it blocks light at the very edge of the visible spectrum for certain high definition cameras that require extra IR blocking to achieve true black tones. Some cameras that can take advantage of the extra IR blocking abilities of the True-Cut IR 680 are the Sony PMW-EX1 and PMW-EX3.
Most high-definition cameras have a high sensitivity to light in the IR spectrum, and though the IR light is not visible to the human eye, it can result in odd color shifts and prevent a camera’s imagers from capturing true blacks. As digital cinematographers use multi-stop neutral-density (ND) filters to allow them to open their lens iris for more depth of field, IR light begins to dominate light from the visible spectrum, making its pollution all the more apparent.
Schneider, a world leader in precision optics for nearly a century, developed its True-Cut IR 680 filter to remove the IR spectrum from the light path, resulting in more vibrant colors and true blacks from both CCD and CMOS imagers. The True-Cut IR filter blocks the IR light mere nanometers from the visible spectrum, eliminating IR pollution from the image

Les Nagy · January 20th, 2012, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

Les, how big is the green vignette area on a full zoom-out? 10% of frame? More?

I would say it is quite noticeable about 20% or so from the edge of field. I just rechecked and I need to zoom to at least 15mm for it to be sufficiently gone to not be objectionable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

Does the B+W 486 have the same problem as the Schneider 486? Are B+W and Schneider sharing a product or are they the same company?

No idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

Tipps u. Tricks: UV-IR Cut Filter B+W 486 , Jos. Schneider Optische Werke GmbH
B+W 486 UV-IR Cut Filter

"With increasing angle of incidence, this leads to a change in light color towards blue. This effect can clearly be seen by looking at an UV-IR barrier filter from an angle. The color of the reflected light changes, with a similar effect on the light traveling through the filter.

The filter is therefore not suitable for lens systems with
an angle of view of more than 60°"

Well the 486 was sold as a solution for the EX1 and EX3, considering the above statement or not.

The thing with replacing the filters in the ND wheel inside the camera is that they are very small and therefore much less expensive to produce. A kit with the three needed replacements would and should cost less than 1/3 in total than a front filter. If they are sold for the EX3, a skilled owner or a local camera service shop would be able to replace them quite easily. Another way to supply it would be pre-installed in a Sony replacement part filter wheel. Almost any person could replace it with some instruction. For the EX1 I would say a very skilled owner could do it, or a local camera service shop. Either way it would be a very effective solution for those who need the near IR problem fixed and probably for the same price in total in the end.

Gints Klimanis · January 20th, 2012, 05:57 PM

Les, you have a great idea about replacement of the internal filters : cheap, and most importantly, convenient.

Les Nagy · January 21st, 2012, 01:26 AM

Thank you. If only Schneider had considered this idea when I talked to them directly a couple of years ago....

Bob Hart · January 21st, 2012, 04:00 AM

How resistant to surface scratching and marking are the new filters going to be. One cannot forever stop idiots from touching our stuff. I have a IR 750 which is an expensive lesson in conservation. I had two uses out of it before it got a vertical scratch in the surface coating.

This thread is beginning to look like a moan and groan session. We might need to be a little careful otherwise Ryan may have to retreat to the bunker.

I think Ryan, that what you are up against is one or two or maybe more people here have become conditioned if sometimes resentful towards being paying customers of a very complex software or a firmware based hardware product for which they become involuntary beta testers. In that instance the vendors offer free incremental updates or upgrades between major revisions, which makes the investment worthwhile most times.

When it comes to much simpler hardware, once you pay up, it's yours. Something the user may not like may not become apparent straight away. By that time, the product may also have some general wear and tear, example - scratches or cleaning marks. Therefore as one broke it, one owns it, to keep, hold and to cherish be it useless or not.

It is likely an impossible business plan for you to offer incremental revisions. The exchange offer is as close as you are likely to be able to get in that optical glass can be recycled to offset some losses.

At what seems to be a premium price, people want to know what they are getting. If that means you need to provide a spectral chart, then that might be a bullet that has to be bit before you turn the product loose in the marketplace.

Manufacturers of motion picture film have provided spectral charts of their products' performance for years. Reputable lens manufacturers do something similar. Makers of sound equipment publish the frequency and noise performance charts of their gear.

The manufacturers of prosumer level video camcorders probably should also be a bit more upfront. Over time, having to resort to iffy workarounds annoys people. Did JVC ever really recover the lost trust from their "split screen" and "blown firewire port" debacles. Sony took a bit of a slap over audio deficiencies in their prosumer version of their legendary VX2000 camcorder, the PD150.

Your filters represent a workaround for current deficiencies in camera products, which people have unfortunately become conditioned to expect. It is not your fault but is likely why people do want to know the technical guts of the fix they are putting hands in wallets for, lest they replace one problem with another.

Planar figuring and finishing of optical grade glass is a more expensive business than many appreciate and you are likely doing well bringing them in at the price you already charge. However "trust us because we say it is good" is unlikely to win us hoary lot of doubting Thomas's over. Give us as much techspec as you can without compromising the security of your intellectual property and you may find the troops more accepting.

Gints Klimanis · January 21st, 2012, 02:56 PM

Bob, thanks. Yes, we want more info for specialized equipment.

The technical information about the IR cut filters on the Schneider site is concise but not enough to choose among them. How close is the "near-cut" Platinum IRND IR-cut performance to that of the Tru-Cut 680 IR? The IRND is described as being free of off-angle color shift problems. Great. Is this the case for True-Cut IR ?

MPTV True-Cut IR
https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecom....aspx?CID=1699

MPTV Platinum IRND
https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecom....aspx?CID=1698

Bob Hart · January 22nd, 2012, 10:25 AM

As for the IR 750 filter, I am please with how it works with heavy ND. I have not so far observed any vignetting or darker corners on a SI2K image but I have not tested it with a wide lens like the 9mm or 5.7mm yet.

Greens on foliage seem to reproduce more faithfully.

January 19th, 2012, 04:50 PM	#34
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors Thank you for your company support, Mr. Avery. I did not realize that my in-camera filters would not be as good as glass. How does the IRND.3 work in conjunction with in-camera ND filters such as those of the Sony EX1? If there are any limitations, such as a green shift (?) on wide angle for the B+W 486, please let us know. The Schneider IRND.3 seems to be just the right filter for outdoor use in which I generally find the spacing of the Sony EX1 ND filters to be too great to allow me to set the camera between f/4 and f/5.6 for best sharpness . Last edited by Gints Klimanis; January 19th, 2012 at 05:30 PM.

January 19th, 2012, 10:31 PM	#35
Les Nagy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: A Canadian in Canada, and sometimes Chile Posts: 265	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors What I don't understand is why nobody has offered replacements for ND filters interior to the EX3 with filters of this type. I spoke to one of the Schneider engineers a few years ago and thought something would be happening but after all this time... The only problem would be that you lose 1/2 stop of light permanently and possible not have correct color temp. settings in camera. But with the filters replaced it would never be an issue to forget to put it on, and not be something adding to the front of the camera, and you could change lenses without having to worry about another filter. I would pay for a replacement ND filter wheel.... I have both the Tiffen T1 and the Schneider 486 and neither is good enough but do help when there is no other choice.

January 20th, 2012, 01:10 AM	#36
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors "I have both the Tiffen T1 and the Schneider 486 and neither is good enough" As a near customer of these filters for my EX1, I am curious about your statement. Schneider now has the Platinum IRND.3 . What do you not like about the Schneider 486? Though, I agree. I would also pay for a replacement of the EX1 ND filters. Does the EX3 have the same problem? I thought both the EX1R and EX3 were improved with IR reduction.

January 20th, 2012, 01:00 PM	#37
Les Nagy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: A Canadian in Canada, and sometimes Chile Posts: 265	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors The 486 is good enough except when fully zoomed out. There is a green vignetting at the edges of the image. This is because the 486 is an interference filter and beyond a certain angle of incidence of the light the filter characteristics change. So the 486 is only useable zoomed beyond about 10mm if I remember correctly. This severely limits the usefulness of the filter. The other problem with all of these add on filter solutions is that none work with my wide angle adapter. The real solution is to replace the ND filters inside the camera for these new types.

January 20th, 2012, 02:49 PM	#38
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors Les, how big is the green vignette area on a full zoom-out? 10% of frame? More? Does the B+W 486 have the same problem as the Schneider 486? Are B+W and Schneider sharing a product or are they the same company? Tipps u. Tricks: UV-IR Cut Filter B+W 486 , Jos. Schneider Optische Werke GmbH B+W 486 UV-IR Cut Filter "With increasing angle of incidence, this leads to a change in light color towards blue. This effect can clearly be seen by looking at an UV-IR barrier filter from an angle. The color of the reflected light changes, with a similar effect on the light traveling through the filter. The filter is therefore not suitable for lens systems with an angle of view of more than 60°"

February 24th, 2010, 01:29 PM	#31
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	The april filter is a combination IR + ND. The one available now is just an IR no ND - probably the more important filter for the average EX user.

February 24th, 2010, 02:52 PM	#32
Charles Newcomb Major Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Salida, Colorado Posts: 561	I don't know, maybe it's my computer screen (24"iMac)... I can certainly see the red in the example before correction, but I also see green in the example after correction. Perhaps the new IRND will fix that?

February 25th, 2010, 01:22 PM	#33
Ryan Avery Sponsor: Schneider Optics Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Van Nuys, CA Posts: 387	The new Platinum IRND will not require any color balance whatsoever. The IRND.3 will probably be the best solution if you can afford the one stop of light loss. If you can only afford 1/2 stop of light loss, then the Platinum 1/2 Stop IR filter will be the best bet. If you can afford no light loss and shoot at less than full wide angle, then the Schneider True-Cut 680 or B+W 486 will remain the best solution from Schneider. Ryan Avery Schneider Optics

January 20th, 2012, 03:05 PM	#39
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors I have not seen any posts on 77MM TRUE-CUT 680 IR FILTER https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecom...=1303&IID=6947 The Schneider Optics True-Cut IR 680 is similar to the True-Cut 750 except that it blocks light at the very edge of the visible spectrum for certain high definition cameras that require extra IR blocking to achieve true black tones. Some cameras that can take advantage of the extra IR blocking abilities of the True-Cut IR 680 are the Sony PMW-EX1 and PMW-EX3. Most high-definition cameras have a high sensitivity to light in the IR spectrum, and though the IR light is not visible to the human eye, it can result in odd color shifts and prevent a camera’s imagers from capturing true blacks. As digital cinematographers use multi-stop neutral-density (ND) filters to allow them to open their lens iris for more depth of field, IR light begins to dominate light from the visible spectrum, making its pollution all the more apparent. Schneider, a world leader in precision optics for nearly a century, developed its True-Cut IR 680 filter to remove the IR spectrum from the light path, resulting in more vibrant colors and true blacks from both CCD and CMOS imagers. The True-Cut IR filter blocks the IR light mere nanometers from the visible spectrum, eliminating IR pollution from the image

January 20th, 2012, 05:57 PM	#41
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors Les, you have a great idea about replacement of the internal filters : cheap, and most importantly, convenient.

January 21st, 2012, 01:26 AM	#42
Les Nagy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: A Canadian in Canada, and sometimes Chile Posts: 265	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors Thank you. If only Schneider had considered this idea when I talked to them directly a couple of years ago....

January 21st, 2012, 04:00 AM	#43
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors How resistant to surface scratching and marking are the new filters going to be. One cannot forever stop idiots from touching our stuff. I have a IR 750 which is an expensive lesson in conservation. I had two uses out of it before it got a vertical scratch in the surface coating. This thread is beginning to look like a moan and groan session. We might need to be a little careful otherwise Ryan may have to retreat to the bunker. I think Ryan, that what you are up against is one or two or maybe more people here have become conditioned if sometimes resentful towards being paying customers of a very complex software or a firmware based hardware product for which they become involuntary beta testers. In that instance the vendors offer free incremental updates or upgrades between major revisions, which makes the investment worthwhile most times. When it comes to much simpler hardware, once you pay up, it's yours. Something the user may not like may not become apparent straight away. By that time, the product may also have some general wear and tear, example - scratches or cleaning marks. Therefore as one broke it, one owns it, to keep, hold and to cherish be it useless or not. It is likely an impossible business plan for you to offer incremental revisions. The exchange offer is as close as you are likely to be able to get in that optical glass can be recycled to offset some losses. At what seems to be a premium price, people want to know what they are getting. If that means you need to provide a spectral chart, then that might be a bullet that has to be bit before you turn the product loose in the marketplace. Manufacturers of motion picture film have provided spectral charts of their products' performance for years. Reputable lens manufacturers do something similar. Makers of sound equipment publish the frequency and noise performance charts of their gear. The manufacturers of prosumer level video camcorders probably should also be a bit more upfront. Over time, having to resort to iffy workarounds annoys people. Did JVC ever really recover the lost trust from their "split screen" and "blown firewire port" debacles. Sony took a bit of a slap over audio deficiencies in their prosumer version of their legendary VX2000 camcorder, the PD150. Your filters represent a workaround for current deficiencies in camera products, which people have unfortunately become conditioned to expect. It is not your fault but is likely why people do want to know the technical guts of the fix they are putting hands in wallets for, lest they replace one problem with another. Planar figuring and finishing of optical grade glass is a more expensive business than many appreciate and you are likely doing well bringing them in at the price you already charge. However "trust us because we say it is good" is unlikely to win us hoary lot of doubting Thomas's over. Give us as much techspec as you can without compromising the security of your intellectual property and you may find the troops more accepting. Last edited by Bob Hart; January 21st, 2012 at 04:51 AM. Reason: added text

January 21st, 2012, 02:56 PM	#44
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors Bob, thanks. Yes, we want more info for specialized equipment. The technical information about the IR cut filters on the Schneider site is concise but not enough to choose among them. How close is the "near-cut" Platinum IRND IR-cut performance to that of the Tru-Cut 680 IR? The IRND is described as being free of off-angle color shift problems. Great. Is this the case for True-Cut IR ? MPTV True-Cut IR https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecom....aspx?CID=1699 MPTV Platinum IRND https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecom....aspx?CID=1698 Last edited by Gints Klimanis; January 21st, 2012 at 03:41 PM.

January 22nd, 2012, 10:25 AM	#45
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Re: New Schneider Platinum 1/2 Stop IR for CMOS Sensors As for the IR 750 filter, I am please with how it works with heavy ND. I have not so far observed any vignetting or darker corners on a SI2K image but I have not tested it with a wide lens like the 9mm or 5.7mm yet. Greens on foliage seem to reproduce more faithfully.