Libec vs Manfrotto zoom controller

Marty Welk · February 18th, 2010, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

When setting the speed for the handle zoom button, speeds below 10 are not guaranteed to work by Sony themselves (it's mentioned in the EX3 manual, and in the EX1R firmware, you cannot event set it to digits < 10).

...

Yes good points, how perfect the lens motor gearing stuff is, is probably a big differance, you can feel that the issue seems to be all about the drag and the gears intermesh and all that stuff, not nessiarily the Digital speed control junk that is occuring to PWM the motors.

but i need to point out that on the EX1r you can go below 8 on the handle zoom, you just dont see the numbers. the particular one i have works with very little wowowowo at 3-4, and i need those slow zoom speeds.

my need for a external would be more about staying within the lower range of zoom speeds, so myself or a camera person without great skill doesnt do a zoom that is to fast.

I totally appretiate everyones input on this subject. it is interesting how the Libec has used a easing or partly logrythmatic pots or something.

but does the libec have an ability to stop completely the use of the higher speeds?
meaning if someone jams the rocker down (by stupid accident) the zoom will still go fast, no mater how it is set?

Tom Roper · February 18th, 2010, 09:24 AM

Yes, the Libec zoom will still fly if you jam the rocker (or the knob), but I have not actual proof the pot is logarithmic, although it feels that way to me.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I don't put two cents into this concern that by updating the EX3 firmware you will lose the zoom controller function, but I have to make the disclaimer I don't own an EX3 either. I also don't see any reason why the Manfrotto should not potentially be smooth. If Piotr says it's smooth, I know it is smooth.

I do know first hand the Libec is very smooth with my EX1, and less so with my PMW350, but the latter demonstrates the same occasional lack of smoothness from the rocker on the hand grip as well, so it is inherent to the lens assembly, not the zoom controller employed.

Ed Kukla · February 18th, 2010, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

On the other hand, my Manfrotto 521ex is capable of zooming from full wide to full tele (00-99) in one go, lasting as long as almost 2 minutes. And, it's been so with 2 controllers, and 2 lenses (as my original lense has been replaced by Sony for all another reason)...

Have you timed your zoom? My manfrotto, on slowest dial setting will zoom from full wide to full tele in 75 seconds, maximum slowest zoom(on my standard lens). Far from 2 minutes.
The Libec does the same thing, 75 seconds.

The speed wheel control does allow easier slow zooms on the manfrotto vs the libec. But, that speed wheel also limits the fast speed. When the wheel is at the slow setting, the fastest zoom is about 15 seconds. When the wheel is on the fast setting, the zoom is about 3 seconds. Can't have both. The libec fast zoom is also about 3 seconds.

So both controllers can do 75 second zooms and both controllers can do 3 second zooms on the same lens. But the manfrotto can't do both without the speed wheel adjustment. The speed wheel adjustment is a double edged sword. It does make doing a slow zoom a bit easier but limits the fast speed of the zoom.

I would like the manfrotto just fine except it will not do an acceptable zoom at all on my W/A lens whereas the libec does just fine on either lens

Tom Roper · February 18th, 2010, 12:52 PM

Something that's missing from my PMW350 is the zoom switch on the handle of my EX1. I like very much being able to dial in the exact zoom speed. When I saw that feature on the Manfrotto, I assumed it was the same. I think you are saying the dial selects a range of speeds rather than discrete ones?

The other feature missing on the PMW350 is Shot Transition Modes. I miss that greatly. It's just so much harder to combine a rack focus or zoom without them, and be exact and repeatable.

Ed Kukla · February 18th, 2010, 02:54 PM

The handle zoom on the EX cameras is a one-speed control. You can select slow or fast with the switch on the side of the handle and you can go into the menu to change the speed of the low and high settings; but whatever setting you select, that's the ONLY speed it will zoom.
On the handgrip zoom control and the remote zoom controls, you get more speed as you push further on the rocker. the manfrotto has a wheel on the control to fine tune the range of the zoom speed. It is similar to the low/high switch on the handle but more sophisticated.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 18th, 2010, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Kukla

Have you timed your zoom? My manfrotto, on slowest dial setting will zoom from full wide to full tele in 75 seconds, maximum slowest zoom(on my standard lens). Far from 2 minutes.

Yes - I did time my zooms, and 117 secs has been my slowest result. But mind you - even though I don't have a clue whether these have anything in common - such a slow zoom with the 521ex is only possible when I set the slow zoom to "2" in the camera menu! BTW I must have been lucky with both my lenses; at 2 they have been perfectly smooth - the only stuttering I ever noticed has been with the slow zoom speed set to 1 in the Camera menu. But this only proves my point: it's up to the specific lens unit, not the external controller.

Just try that with your EX3...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Kukla

The speed wheel control does allow easier slow zooms on the manfrotto vs the libec. But, that speed wheel also limits the fast speed. When the wheel is at the slow setting, the fastest zoom is about 15 seconds. When the wheel is on the fast setting, the zoom is about 3 seconds. Can't have both.

I cannot agree that the max speed dial setting on the 521ex is limiting. When set to low, at least you can press the rocker fully and still be guaranteed a relatively slow zoom (at least 15 secs, as you pointed out). But there are those two additional buttons on the Manfrotto that are unique to this controller; using them, you always have access to the full speed available - regardless of the max speed wheel setting.

From what you're saying, I guess you never tried that feature.

Ed Kukla · February 18th, 2010, 07:48 PM

I keep getting 75 seconds. I just noticed you have an EX-1. I'm using an EX-3.

Can anyone else with an EX-3 and a manfrotto time their zoom for longest possible length?

What is the mm range of the EX-1 lens? The 3 is 5.8mm to 81.2mm

Piotr Wozniacki · February 18th, 2010, 08:41 PM

Correction - I just re-timed, and with the speed dial set to slowest, fully pressing and keeping the rocker gives not 15, but 19 seconds of full range zoom with the Manfrotto... Of course, pressing the rocker slightly gives me even slower zooms (of up to the 117 secs I also mentioned).

And if I need a rapid 3 secs zoom, I just press one of the buttons I mentioned - no need to dial the speed wheel up!

Ed Kukla · February 22nd, 2010, 08:40 PM

Fujinon returned to me my original W/A lens to try with the Libec controller. It did not work well.

So apparently some Fujinon lenses are worse than others and some Fujinon lenses can be made to work with a Libec when a Manfrotto will not.

Fujinon is being very helpful in replacing the W/A lens. I've had a free loaner for a month now while we explore the problem. They are sending me a third lens, they want the loaner returned after I test the new lens.

********************************************************************
Manfrottos note to me last week:

"The zoom is also not smooth at times when using the camera’s hand zoom. The problem is the noise inside the lenses: Sony manuals indicate that slow zooms may not be setup under value 8. (page 57 for EX1 manual, page 55 for EX1R & page 62 for EX3 Knowing that this is a technical limit it often, unfortunately, appears also at a higher speed.

How big the problem is depends on the particular camera and lens. For some it is big, for others it does not exist. In reading the comments in web forums there are different posts depending on the customer, camera, lens and the remote.

The problems persist also with other remote controls. All competitors have the same problem because is generated by the cameras. Our remote works in the same way as the competitors, but because it also allows you to set the zoom limit speed as an added feature; the camera’s problem is more visible .

The jerky zoom problem at very slow speed is generated from the camera and not from the remotes."

*******************************************************************
My observations:

ALL of these lenses DO work fine with the "hand zoom". I'm assuming they mean the rocker on the hand grip.

The problem does NOT persist with all other remote controls as I and others have noted with Libecs.

There is some inconsistancy with various Fujinon lenses. I'm not sure how the camera can be blamed for this. I get perfectly good results with my standard lens with both controllers. I get poor results with my original W/A lens with both controllers. I get poor results with the manfrotto but excellent results from the Libec on the replacement W/A lens.

February 18th, 2010, 08:41 PM	#23
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Correction - I just re-timed, and with the speed dial set to slowest, fully pressing and keeping the rocker gives not 15, but 19 seconds of full range zoom with the Manfrotto... Of course, pressing the rocker slightly gives me even slower zooms (of up to the 117 secs I also mentioned). And if I need a rapid 3 secs zoom, I just press one of the buttons I mentioned - no need to dial the speed wheel up! __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 18th, 2010, 09:24 AM	#17
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Yes, the Libec zoom will still fly if you jam the rocker (or the knob), but I have not actual proof the pot is logarithmic, although it feels that way to me. Personally, and this is just my opinion, I don't put two cents into this concern that by updating the EX3 firmware you will lose the zoom controller function, but I have to make the disclaimer I don't own an EX3 either. I also don't see any reason why the Manfrotto should not potentially be smooth. If Piotr says it's smooth, I know it is smooth. I do know first hand the Libec is very smooth with my EX1, and less so with my PMW350, but the latter demonstrates the same occasional lack of smoothness from the rocker on the hand grip as well, so it is inherent to the lens assembly, not the zoom controller employed.

February 18th, 2010, 12:52 PM	#19
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Something that's missing from my PMW350 is the zoom switch on the handle of my EX1. I like very much being able to dial in the exact zoom speed. When I saw that feature on the Manfrotto, I assumed it was the same. I think you are saying the dial selects a range of speeds rather than discrete ones? The other feature missing on the PMW350 is Shot Transition Modes. I miss that greatly. It's just so much harder to combine a rack focus or zoom without them, and be exact and repeatable.

February 18th, 2010, 02:54 PM	#20
Ed Kukla Major Player Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: All over, USA Posts: 512	The handle zoom on the EX cameras is a one-speed control. You can select slow or fast with the switch on the side of the handle and you can go into the menu to change the speed of the low and high settings; but whatever setting you select, that's the ONLY speed it will zoom. On the handgrip zoom control and the remote zoom controls, you get more speed as you push further on the rocker. the manfrotto has a wheel on the control to fine tune the range of the zoom speed. It is similar to the low/high switch on the handle but more sophisticated.

February 18th, 2010, 07:48 PM	#22
Ed Kukla Major Player Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: All over, USA Posts: 512	I keep getting 75 seconds. I just noticed you have an EX-1. I'm using an EX-3. Can anyone else with an EX-3 and a manfrotto time their zoom for longest possible length? What is the mm range of the EX-1 lens? The 3 is 5.8mm to 81.2mm

February 22nd, 2010, 08:40 PM	#24
Ed Kukla Major Player Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: All over, USA Posts: 512	Fujinon returned to me my original W/A lens to try with the Libec controller. It did not work well. So apparently some Fujinon lenses are worse than others and some Fujinon lenses can be made to work with a Libec when a Manfrotto will not. Fujinon is being very helpful in replacing the W/A lens. I've had a free loaner for a month now while we explore the problem. They are sending me a third lens, they want the loaner returned after I test the new lens. ****************************************************************** Manfrottos note to me last week: "The zoom is also not smooth at times when using the camera’s hand zoom. The problem is the noise inside the lenses: Sony manuals indicate that slow zooms may not be setup under value 8. (page 57 for EX1 manual, page 55 for EX1R & page 62 for EX3 Knowing that this is a technical limit it often, unfortunately, appears also at a higher speed. How big the problem is depends on the particular camera and lens. For some it is big, for others it does not exist. In reading the comments in web forums there are different posts depending on the customer, camera, lens and the remote. The problems persist also with other remote controls. All competitors have the same problem because is generated by the cameras. Our remote works in the same way as the competitors, but because it also allows you to set the zoom limit speed as an added feature; the camera’s problem is more visible . The jerky zoom problem at very slow speed is generated from the camera and not from the remotes." ***************************************************************** My observations: ALL of these lenses DO work fine with the "hand zoom". I'm assuming they mean the rocker on the hand grip. The problem does NOT persist with all other remote controls as I and others have noted with Libecs. There is some inconsistancy with various Fujinon lenses. I'm not sure how the camera can be blamed for this. I get perfectly good results with my standard lens with both controllers. I get poor results with my original W/A lens with both controllers. I get poor results with the manfrotto but excellent results from the Libec on the replacement W/A lens.