Ski Race at DVinfo.net

Craig Terott · February 1st, 2010, 08:54 AM

I usually don't take on jobs like this but I've been asked to shoot a ski race in a couple days.

Forecast is sunny.

Delivery will be on DVD.

My question is about camera settings. My thought is to shoot 720/60p at 500 shutter. I just don't feel like learning any lessons the hard way. Anyone foresee any problems with these settings or anyone whos shot some similar stuff, your suggestions are welcome.

Thank you!

Vincent Oliver · February 1st, 2010, 03:47 PM

Not sure why you would want to use 1/500, the smoothness of a ski run could be lost. I personally would shoot at 1/125 just to add a touch of movement blur but making sure I had a good panning technique.

Of course a lot would depend on if you are side on, or the skiers are coming straight down towards you.

Olof Ekbergh · February 1st, 2010, 05:32 PM

This is actually one case for 1080 60i. I would use a 125 shutter. If youa re delivering in the US. You will get very smooth motion, and it will play well on DVD's.

And don't let the snow throw off your exposure. Auto Iris has a tendency to under expose snow scenes. Set exposure on clothing or a face in the scene not the average for the whole scene.

Don't use auto iris at all.

Daniel Epstein · February 1st, 2010, 06:11 PM

Olof's advice is pretty good. I agree that you don't want to use too high a shutter if most of your edit is going to be at realtime speeds. If you are doing the edit you can decide if you want 1080 or 720. You don't say which camera you are using but skiing has a large range of distances to cover from far away to close up so be prepared. Multiple cameras would help a lot

Paul Cronin · February 1st, 2010, 06:28 PM

Agree with Olof on the 125 shutter and maybe 250 if you are close (inside 10 feet) but I would not shoot 60i I would shoot 30p or if you overcrank shoot 720/60p. For all fast sport action I have shot with some snowboarding and extreme skiing i have always had better finished product with Progressive over Interlaced.

Bo Skelmose · February 2nd, 2010, 02:45 AM

Well I'll consider to use shutter at all - and if you do - no more than 1/125, but that is a matter of taste. But definately 720 60P which will give you the possibility of making great slowmotion when nedeed.
Bo

Paul Cronin · February 2nd, 2010, 08:10 AM

Agree Bo shutter is a matter of taste. I have had producers say 1/1000 on the action shot and oh well I do what they ask. What does the client want? Fast blur then 1/60 could be the way to go. And if you use 60p then I agree keep the shutter lower is better.

Craig do you have time to go run a few test and show the client? Always worth the time.

Rob Lagerstrom · February 2nd, 2010, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olof Ekbergh

This is actually one case for 1080 60i. I would use a 125 shutter. If youa re delivering in the US. You will get very smooth motion, and it will play well on DVD's.

Not trying to hi-jack this thread but I have a similar shoot coming up where I will be shooting chansaw safety videos. I also was wondering whether to go 1080 60i or 720p.
Delivery will be DVD and web deliverable. Most action will be real time, but I would like to have ability for good slo-mo too.
Thanks, Rob

Larry Kelly · February 2nd, 2010, 11:26 AM

For both situations I would suggest 720P 60 rather than over cranking particularly if you are recording sound into your camera. That way you have good real time with sound and good slow motion in post. My personal taste for shutter is always a little motion blur in these kinds of shots so I would keep the shutter speed on the lower side as well.

Larry

Olof Ekbergh · February 2nd, 2010, 11:28 AM

720 60p is a very good choice. It has the most flexibility. It can easily be converted to 60i if you want.

It really is a question of personal taste.

Most NTSC video looks best in 30p in my opinion.

But I really like sports in 1080 60i, it is kind of a network standard. And Bluray supports this. 30p can be a little stuttering.

Like I said this is highly personal.

At some point we may have 1080 60p or even 120p for super reality. It is said that above 80 FPS we cant discern flicker at all. But a lot of people will probably prefer 24p even then for its dreamy look.

Rob Lagerstrom · February 3rd, 2010, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olof Ekbergh

720 60p is a very good choice. It has the most flexibility. It can easily be converted to 60i if you want.

But I really like sports in 1080 60i, it is kind of a network standard. And Bluray supports this. 30p can be a little stuttering.

Olof, When you see sports played back in slo-mo is it at 1080 60i? I must assume even if it is, the signal is processed through a black box before the replay. Recommended shutter speed?

It does seem like 720 60p is a good balance between good slo-mo and and still retain a (slight) film look. As above, recommended SS? 30fps?
Thanks, Rob

Rob Lagerstrom · February 3rd, 2010, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Kelly

For both situations I would suggest 720P 60 rather than over cranking particularly if you are recording sound into your camera. That way you have good real time with sound and good slow motion in post. My personal taste for shutter is always a little motion blur in these kinds of shots so I would keep the shutter speed on the lower side as well.

Larry

Larry, good point about sound sync. In the past when shooting SD and slowing down footage I could choose to keep the audio normal speed. By keeping the SS on the slower side I am sure you are referring to the OP who asked about using 125th or higher. For "normal" blur are you suggesting keeping at 60fps?
Thanks, Rob

Olof Ekbergh · February 3rd, 2010, 08:33 AM

Network slomo on sports is often from dedicated expensive systems, and can be very slow and smooth.

60p will give you as good a slomo as you can get, w/o the added datarate of over crank. If you over crank you loose audio on the EX cams.

I recommend 125 shutter speed for 60p. Stills will be really nice as long as you pan with the subject. If you want freeze frames go with 500-1000, but it will not look smooth as video.

Even shooting stills of skiers with SLR cams I often use ND and shutter of 1/60 or 125, for nice background blur, it makes the skier really stand out and adds lots of motion feel.

Larry Kelly · February 3rd, 2010, 10:14 AM

I Agree Olof, below is my son's photography site, he and I covered the ice race pictured there. You can see some of his stills shot at I believe 1/60th. He also has some rough video from his 5Dmrkll but I'm not sure what settings he used and it was hand held so it's a little shaky. Further down he has a nice little video of his wife and son called the main thing with his 5D and it's a good example of a shutter speed set too fast. Watch the strobing on the crop.
ryanandbeth.ca

Simon Wyndham · February 4th, 2010, 08:01 AM

I would leave the shutter alone. If you are following the racers then you'll want more blur to give the impression of speed. Unless it is used in a stylistic way I think that fast shutters just look like amateur camcorder footage.

Might be worth finding out what Warren Miller does.

February 1st, 2010, 08:54 AM	#1
Craig Terott Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 691	Ski Race I usually don't take on jobs like this but I've been asked to shoot a ski race in a couple days. Forecast is sunny. Delivery will be on DVD. My question is about camera settings. My thought is to shoot 720/60p at 500 shutter. I just don't feel like learning any lessons the hard way. Anyone foresee any problems with these settings or anyone whos shot some similar stuff, your suggestions are welcome. Thank you!

February 1st, 2010, 03:47 PM	#2
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Not sure why you would want to use 1/500, the smoothness of a ski run could be lost. I personally would shoot at 1/125 just to add a touch of movement blur but making sure I had a good panning technique. Of course a lot would depend on if you are side on, or the skiers are coming straight down towards you. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

February 1st, 2010, 06:28 PM	#5
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Agree with Olof on the 125 shutter and maybe 250 if you are close (inside 10 feet) but I would not shoot 60i I would shoot 30p or if you overcrank shoot 720/60p. For all fast sport action I have shot with some snowboarding and extreme skiing i have always had better finished product with Progressive over Interlaced. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

February 2nd, 2010, 08:10 AM	#7
Paul Cronin Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 4,048	Agree Bo shutter is a matter of taste. I have had producers say 1/1000 on the action shot and oh well I do what they ask. What does the client want? Fast blur then 1/60 could be the way to go. And if you use 60p then I agree keep the shutter lower is better. Craig do you have time to go run a few test and show the client? Always worth the time. __________________ Paul Cronin www.paulcroninstudios.com

February 1st, 2010, 05:32 PM	#3
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	This is actually one case for 1080 60i. I would use a 125 shutter. If youa re delivering in the US. You will get very smooth motion, and it will play well on DVD's. And don't let the snow throw off your exposure. Auto Iris has a tendency to under expose snow scenes. Set exposure on clothing or a face in the scene not the average for the whole scene. Don't use auto iris at all.

February 1st, 2010, 06:11 PM	#4
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	Olof's advice is pretty good. I agree that you don't want to use too high a shutter if most of your edit is going to be at realtime speeds. If you are doing the edit you can decide if you want 1080 or 720. You don't say which camera you are using but skiing has a large range of distances to cover from far away to close up so be prepared. Multiple cameras would help a lot

February 2nd, 2010, 02:45 AM	#6
Bo Skelmose Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 495	Well I'll consider to use shutter at all - and if you do - no more than 1/125, but that is a matter of taste. But definately 720 60P which will give you the possibility of making great slowmotion when nedeed. Bo

February 2nd, 2010, 11:26 AM	#9
Larry Kelly Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 61	For both situations I would suggest 720P 60 rather than over cranking particularly if you are recording sound into your camera. That way you have good real time with sound and good slow motion in post. My personal taste for shutter is always a little motion blur in these kinds of shots so I would keep the shutter speed on the lower side as well. Larry

February 2nd, 2010, 11:28 AM	#10
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	720 60p is a very good choice. It has the most flexibility. It can easily be converted to 60i if you want. It really is a question of personal taste. Most NTSC video looks best in 30p in my opinion. But I really like sports in 1080 60i, it is kind of a network standard. And Bluray supports this. 30p can be a little stuttering. Like I said this is highly personal. At some point we may have 1080 60p or even 120p for super reality. It is said that above 80 FPS we cant discern flicker at all. But a lot of people will probably prefer 24p even then for its dreamy look.

February 3rd, 2010, 08:33 AM	#13
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	Network slomo on sports is often from dedicated expensive systems, and can be very slow and smooth. 60p will give you as good a slomo as you can get, w/o the added datarate of over crank. If you over crank you loose audio on the EX cams. I recommend 125 shutter speed for 60p. Stills will be really nice as long as you pan with the subject. If you want freeze frames go with 500-1000, but it will not look smooth as video. Even shooting stills of skiers with SLR cams I often use ND and shutter of 1/60 or 125, for nice background blur, it makes the skier really stand out and adds lots of motion feel.

February 3rd, 2010, 10:14 AM	#14
Larry Kelly Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 61	I Agree Olof, below is my son's photography site, he and I covered the ice race pictured there. You can see some of his stills shot at I believe 1/60th. He also has some rough video from his 5Dmrkll but I'm not sure what settings he used and it was hand held so it's a little shaky. Further down he has a nice little video of his wife and son called the main thing with his 5D and it's a good example of a shutter speed set too fast. Watch the strobing on the crop. ryanandbeth.ca

February 4th, 2010, 08:01 AM	#15
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I would leave the shutter alone. If you are following the racers then you'll want more blur to give the impression of speed. Unless it is used in a stylistic way I think that fast shutters just look like amateur camcorder footage. Might be worth finding out what Warren Miller does.