SDHC on the JVC HM side at DVinfo.net

Craig Seeman · September 18th, 2009, 10:36 AM

I notice very few if any comments in the DVInfo forums on SDHC issues with JVC HM cameras (maybe I didn't look hard enough).

I was at the HD Createasphere expo in NYC and spoke to a JVC rep there. I asked them specifically about SDHC issues, asking "what would you recommend if I bought an HM-100."
He said they've had reported issues with Transcend Class 6. They recommend Sandisk Class 6 (that would be the Extreme cards). The camera checks for Class 6 and will reject Class 4 cards. They will be supporting Class 10 shortly. They have no reported issues with Sandisk. The HM-700 has no problems overcranking with the Sandisk cards either (I think their max is 2x which is 720p24/48 25/50, 30/60).

Alas I wish Sony would implement that support. Certainly the Sandisk cards are capable of reliable XDCAM EX recording and overcranking to 2x.

Alister Chapman · September 18th, 2009, 10:46 AM

I think many of the issues being encountered are down to the low quality of most of the adapters, which are based on extremely low cost consumer components and the abundance of fake cards that are all but impossible to tell from the real thing. Many of the Tanscend fakes now have serial numbers that are copied from genuine cards so even if you check on the Transcend site you can't be sure the card is legit.

Craig Seeman · September 18th, 2009, 10:57 AM

Alistar, are you saying part of the issue is the MxR, MxM, Hoomdman adaptors, which I believe are all manufactured from the same plant?

As to cards, since I'm located in NYC, I bought my two 32GB Sandisk Ultra 2 Class 2 from J&R in person (and I'd be able to walk into B&H or Abel too as needed). I bought my cards in January and they've been rock solid from day one.

Even though 4 hours of recording pretty much has me safe for all my projects so far, I'm tempted to walk into J&R and/or B&H and test this theory.

So many people are blaming the cards and I have no idea what their sources are. I simply would NOT get cards from online sources (unless the aforementioned) and that includes Amazon (since, if you read carefully, can be any number of dealers depending on the given link).

Generally though, if there's a batch of counterfeits people run into then I'd think we'd be seeing some of it on the HM forums as well though.

Keith Moreau · September 18th, 2009, 02:41 PM

I have been using older Transcend 16GB class 6 in my JVC HM100 and EX1 with MxR adapters with no problems, though my Transcends are about a year old now.

Craig Seeman · September 19th, 2009, 07:04 PM

Keith, it seems all the card issues, whether Sandisk or Transcend, seem to be recent. This concerns me given the time may soon come that I may need to buy more cards.

I wish we could know something more definitive. I wish Sony was as SDCH friendly as JVC seems to be.

If only Sony could/would fix this with a firmware update.

Keith Moreau · September 19th, 2009, 07:39 PM

Craig, it is unfortunate that the error reports seem to be from recent cards. I'm wondering if some of this is just the larger number of people using the SDHC solution than before.

Back when we were all testing this hack, I put all the cards through benchmarking and also testing at faster than normal frame rates. I did notice that later transcend cards I got were a bit slower than the first transcend cards I purchased, but they still worked.

I guess if I were in the market for more, I'd put any new cards through this process, and do a lot of testing on the cards. I might even consider the expensive but 'certified' Hoodman line.

I'm wondering if MxM or MxR have any feedback about the current state of the SDHC hack many of us have grown to depend on?

Craig Seeman · September 19th, 2009, 07:50 PM

If only Hoodman had 32GB cards and were only about 20% instead of 100% above the cost of other Class 6 SDHC cards such as Sandisk (or Transcend).

If you look at the JVC HM forum here, you don't see any of the hand wringing going on in this forum.

I'm nostalgic for the days where we were a meticulous bunch. I (we) have no idea if the people who are reporting errors are buying from "risky" sources or are making mistakes such as not waiting for the red light to turn green before recording again.

Piotr Wozniacki · September 20th, 2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I (we) have no idea if the people who are reporting errors are buying from "risky" sources or are making mistakes such as not waiting for the red light to turn green before recording again.

Craig, I don't know about buying SDHC from "risky" sources either - what I do know is that neither with SxS nor with MxM (same as Hoodman), do I have to wait for the red light to turn green.

With MxR adapter however (holding an SDHC card from the same batch as my MxM does), if I press Record again too early, I indeed get the "media restore" error message.

Craig Seeman · September 20th, 2009, 07:48 AM

Piotr, I don't see how that's possible. MxR and MxM are manufactured to the same specs at the same manufacturer . . . unless that's changed. I also don't see how the card can impact buffer time to write unless the card has its own built in buffer or some other way to speed throughput.

Piotr Wozniacki · September 20th, 2009, 08:00 AM

They are certainly not exactly the same Craig. They even differ in size (the MxM being a much better fir, both inside and outside).

As to the electronic, I really don't know how it happens - but what I wrote is the actual fact. I tested it by putting the same SDHC card in both adapters, and it with MxR I had to wait much longer between consecutive pressings the rec button.

Craig Seeman · September 20th, 2009, 09:47 AM

Piotr, if MxM/Hoodman are being manufactured to different specs than maybe that would solve some of the SDHC problems people are having.

Would you (or others) be willing to do some specific tests using the exact same card in MxR vs MxM/Hoodman?

Using same card with exact same duration record, time red to green light time.
Also test overcrank threshold, the point at which the overcrank frame rate reports media error.

One thought is that at some point the manufacturing plant changed specs which impacted all three so that an MxR card bought early would certainly appear different than an MxM card bought later. The only way to verify this would be to buy the two cards at the same point in time assuming the came from the same run (or close enough).

Brett Sherman · September 20th, 2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I'm nostalgic for the days where we were a meticulous bunch. I (we) have no idea if the people who are reporting errors are buying from "risky" sources or are making mistakes such as not waiting for the red light to turn green before recording again.

I don't see how being "meticulous" reduces write errors. The fact is I bought 8 Transcend cards directly from Amazon - not a third party. They were even from different batches since four had a USB adapter with them. They produced errors periodically that had nothing to do with the red light. And the write delay was 9-11 seconds after stopping. I don't see how being meticulous can change that.

I think there are a couple things going on. #1 - I think Sony's implementation of USB on the SxS slot is extremely picky and not trouble-free. #2 - I think quality control on lower-priced SDHC cards has dropped with the price.

For me the solution is Hoodman cards. Yeah they're twice as much. But I'm more comfortable knowing they actually test them with an EX1. I need more time with them to be fully comfortable using them all they time. I'm considering getting a 32gb SxS card to be my workhorse. If I need to shoot over 2 hours in a day, I'll switch to the Hoodman cards.

Craig Seeman · September 20th, 2009, 02:32 PM

Brett, do you know for a fact Amazon is getting their cards direct from Transcend or 3rd party suppliers, which may vary depending on who has them in stock?

You don't mention the SDHC adaptors you used.

The buffering (red light) seems to be a BIG part of the media errors. It's the same theory behind the overhead when doing overcrank and hitting the error. That error does NOT happen immediately. It does happen at a specific point in time with a given card. If may be a few seconds or a minute or so into recording at a given overcrank. My guess is that over time the speed is faster than the buffer can handle.

Meticulous = thorough testing with documented results. It seems something you are opposed to. It means card X in adaptor y records z seconds and an error occurs. Repeat 10 times and found that the error point occurs as early as b, as late as c or, always at d in time. Take same card and put in adaptor y1 and get the following results which is at variance with above tests.

Brett Sherman · September 20th, 2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Brett, do you know for a fact Amazon is getting their cards direct from Transcend or 3rd party suppliers, which may vary depending on who has them in stock?Meticulous = thorough testing with documented results. It seems something you are opposed to. It means card X in adaptor y records z seconds and an error occurs. Repeat 10 times and found that the error point occurs as early as b, as late as c or, always at d in time. Take same card and put in adaptor y1 and get the following results which is at variance with above tests.

I've tested both Hoodman and MxR adapters. They both operate identically in my case.

I do not know where Amazon gets their cards from. I don't want to be a detective, I just want to shoot video. I also don't want to be a scientist. Even though I probably ran a few hundred trial recordings. I've already stated that the write delays on the Transcend cards were consistently between 9-11 seconds - all 8 cards, with both adapters, consistently. I was quite extensive in posting my results in another post. Also the write errors were not repeatable. They happened at random times. But they happened so I couldn't trust the Transcends. That's why I bought Hoodman cards. They have a 4-6 sec write delay which gives me more piece of mind and also reduces the likelihood of accidentally starting up again during the red light. And I have yet to have a write error with them.

It's really up to individuals to believe me or not. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just trying to save some people the headache I dealt with. If people want to get Transcends and try them out, great. I'd like to hear the results. But, I'm not going down that road again.

September 20th, 2009, 08:00 AM	#10
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	They are certainly not exactly the same Craig. They even differ in size (the MxM being a much better fir, both inside and outside). As to the electronic, I really don't know how it happens - but what I wrote is the actual fact. I tested it by putting the same SDHC card in both adapters, and it with MxR I had to wait much longer between consecutive pressings the rec button. __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

September 18th, 2009, 10:36 AM	#1
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	SDHC on the JVC HM side I notice very few if any comments in the DVInfo forums on SDHC issues with JVC HM cameras (maybe I didn't look hard enough). I was at the HD Createasphere expo in NYC and spoke to a JVC rep there. I asked them specifically about SDHC issues, asking "what would you recommend if I bought an HM-100." He said they've had reported issues with Transcend Class 6. They recommend Sandisk Class 6 (that would be the Extreme cards). The camera checks for Class 6 and will reject Class 4 cards. They will be supporting Class 10 shortly. They have no reported issues with Sandisk. The HM-700 has no problems overcranking with the Sandisk cards either (I think their max is 2x which is 720p24/48 25/50, 30/60). Alas I wish Sony would implement that support. Certainly the Sandisk cards are capable of reliable XDCAM EX recording and overcranking to 2x.

September 18th, 2009, 10:46 AM	#2
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	I think many of the issues being encountered are down to the low quality of most of the adapters, which are based on extremely low cost consumer components and the abundance of fake cards that are all but impossible to tell from the real thing. Many of the Tanscend fakes now have serial numbers that are copied from genuine cards so even if you check on the Transcend site you can't be sure the card is legit. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

September 18th, 2009, 10:57 AM	#3
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Alistar, are you saying part of the issue is the MxR, MxM, Hoomdman adaptors, which I believe are all manufactured from the same plant? As to cards, since I'm located in NYC, I bought my two 32GB Sandisk Ultra 2 Class 2 from J&R in person (and I'd be able to walk into B&H or Abel too as needed). I bought my cards in January and they've been rock solid from day one. Even though 4 hours of recording pretty much has me safe for all my projects so far, I'm tempted to walk into J&R and/or B&H and test this theory. So many people are blaming the cards and I have no idea what their sources are. I simply would NOT get cards from online sources (unless the aforementioned) and that includes Amazon (since, if you read carefully, can be any number of dealers depending on the given link). Generally though, if there's a batch of counterfeits people run into then I'd think we'd be seeing some of it on the HM forums as well though.

September 18th, 2009, 02:41 PM	#4
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	I have been using older Transcend 16GB class 6 in my JVC HM100 and EX1 with MxR adapters with no problems, though my Transcends are about a year old now.

September 19th, 2009, 07:04 PM	#5
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Keith, it seems all the card issues, whether Sandisk or Transcend, seem to be recent. This concerns me given the time may soon come that I may need to buy more cards. I wish we could know something more definitive. I wish Sony was as SDCH friendly as JVC seems to be. If only Sony could/would fix this with a firmware update.

September 19th, 2009, 07:39 PM	#6
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	Craig, it is unfortunate that the error reports seem to be from recent cards. I'm wondering if some of this is just the larger number of people using the SDHC solution than before. Back when we were all testing this hack, I put all the cards through benchmarking and also testing at faster than normal frame rates. I did notice that later transcend cards I got were a bit slower than the first transcend cards I purchased, but they still worked. I guess if I were in the market for more, I'd put any new cards through this process, and do a lot of testing on the cards. I might even consider the expensive but 'certified' Hoodman line. I'm wondering if MxM or MxR have any feedback about the current state of the SDHC hack many of us have grown to depend on?

September 19th, 2009, 07:50 PM	#7
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	If only Hoodman had 32GB cards and were only about 20% instead of 100% above the cost of other Class 6 SDHC cards such as Sandisk (or Transcend). If you look at the JVC HM forum here, you don't see any of the hand wringing going on in this forum. I'm nostalgic for the days where we were a meticulous bunch. I (we) have no idea if the people who are reporting errors are buying from "risky" sources or are making mistakes such as not waiting for the red light to turn green before recording again.

September 20th, 2009, 07:48 AM	#9
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Piotr, I don't see how that's possible. MxR and MxM are manufactured to the same specs at the same manufacturer . . . unless that's changed. I also don't see how the card can impact buffer time to write unless the card has its own built in buffer or some other way to speed throughput.

September 20th, 2009, 09:47 AM	#11
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Piotr, if MxM/Hoodman are being manufactured to different specs than maybe that would solve some of the SDHC problems people are having. Would you (or others) be willing to do some specific tests using the exact same card in MxR vs MxM/Hoodman? Using same card with exact same duration record, time red to green light time. Also test overcrank threshold, the point at which the overcrank frame rate reports media error. One thought is that at some point the manufacturing plant changed specs which impacted all three so that an MxR card bought early would certainly appear different than an MxM card bought later. The only way to verify this would be to buy the two cards at the same point in time assuming the came from the same run (or close enough).

September 20th, 2009, 02:32 PM	#13
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Brett, do you know for a fact Amazon is getting their cards direct from Transcend or 3rd party suppliers, which may vary depending on who has them in stock? You don't mention the SDHC adaptors you used. The buffering (red light) seems to be a BIG part of the media errors. It's the same theory behind the overhead when doing overcrank and hitting the error. That error does NOT happen immediately. It does happen at a specific point in time with a given card. If may be a few seconds or a minute or so into recording at a given overcrank. My guess is that over time the speed is faster than the buffer can handle. Meticulous = thorough testing with documented results. It seems something you are opposed to. It means card X in adaptor y records z seconds and an error occurs. Repeat 10 times and found that the error point occurs as early as b, as late as c or, always at d in time. Take same card and put in adaptor y1 and get the following results which is at variance with above tests.