clip information at DVinfo.net

Marius Boruch · August 2nd, 2009, 06:12 PM

where to find detailed clip info - like shutter speed, gain setting etc.

David C. Williams · August 2nd, 2009, 06:41 PM

Not 100% sure, but I don't think the EX does this. If you open an MXF in XDCAM Viewer and check metadata, it's not there...

Marius Boruch · August 2nd, 2009, 06:51 PM

no, the important data is not there only useless time code; unbelievable!

Doug Jensen · August 3rd, 2009, 04:53 PM

According to the EX engineers who I met with in Japan, the metadata information is already being saved. You just can't read it yet. Perhaps that will be changing soon . . .

Perrone Ford · August 3rd, 2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius Boruch

no, the important data is not there only useless time code; unbelievable!

Name me any camera under US$10k where you can do this currently. How about under $20k (other than a RED). Under $30k?

I'm not quite sure what makes it so unbelievable. This was IMPOSSIBLE on tape, and it's still why camera logs are written down for film.

If the data is being saved, then good on Sony. But dang people, get your expectations in line. The EX1 is not a Viper, and it's not a Genesis or Dalsa either.

Doug Jensen · August 3rd, 2009, 05:06 PM

Perrone,

I undersand what you are saying. A lot of people have unrealistic expectations about all kinds of things they expect cameras to do. But just look at all the metadata that even the cheapest $600 D-SLR provides. There's no reason an $8000 EX3 shouldn't be providing that same level of detail. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros.

Marius Boruch · August 3rd, 2009, 05:10 PM

and here is surprise for you .... the same company - Sony did it on their HDR-XR500V $900 model. I can see gain, shutter, whithe balance setting...
so I'd expect the same from $6K+ camera; it is not a rocket science
btw-
I have this camera (HDR-XR500V ) and it is BETTER low light thank Z5U and Z7U due to new ExmorR sensor - just amazing what just one year in technology can do ;-)
see it here Sony HDR-XR500V low light test By Marius Boruch On ExposureRoom
all shots hand held

Perrone Ford · August 3rd, 2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Perrone,

I undersand what you are saying. A lot of people have unrealistic expectations about all kinds of things they expect cameras to do. But just look at all the metadata that even the cheapest $600 D-SLR provides. There's no reason an $8000 EX3 shouldn't be providing that same level of detail. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros.

Doug,

I know, but DANG. People have been making film for 100 years without it. That is why you hired a Camera Asst. DSLRs do stuff $8k viddeo cams can't. And video cams do stuff DSLRs cant. I used to hear the complaints when I was shooting film (still) from the new DSLR guys. Why the motor drive was ONLY 3.5 frames per second, and how they couldn't get stuff done. And I was thinking back how I started shooting football on a RANGEFINDER Anscomat with Pan-X and getting that work printed.

If Shutter speed and iris info is important to you, PLAN THE SHOT AND WRITE IT DOWN. Yes, hopefully soon we'll have that stuff available in all digital cameras. But I'd be a heck of a lot happier if Sony busied themselves figuring out how to cure skew issues than getting me info I should know before I hit the record button.

Sorry to be irritable. I am just sitting here marveling at how I can lock 3 cameras together in my NLE with separate audio (with that useless timecode) and it's frustrating when everyone just wants everything automatically. No one wants to bother to put in the work any more. I want to light a feature with 3 lights and $1k budget. I want a camera that shoots in the dark has all day storage for $100. I want to cut native hyper-compressed footage in my NLE and I want clean playback at 60fps. And I only want to spend $800.

Best thing I ever did for my photography was to buy a bulb release. I wish we had the equivalent on these new video cameras.

Doug Jensen · August 3rd, 2009, 05:32 PM

It's not fair to compare HD video to film. How many menu settings and other variables are there on a typical film camera?

I'm not saying I'd want, or need, to see the data on every shot, but once in awhile it would be nice. And "once in a while" is likely to occur to me long after I gave any thought to writing down my settings. And how am I going to write down dozens of settings that might be changing 30 times per second?

Think of what a great resource the metadata would be for novices and students. Can you imagine how great it would be for the student and/or instructor to actually look at what the camea was doing at any given time? That is powerful.

And what about when it comes to grading footage in post? Wouldn't it be useful to see the camera settings that were used, when and/or if they changed, and how they may have differed from other cameras on the same shoot?

I'm sure Sony has enough talented engineers on staff that any effort spent pefecting the metadata won't make any difference in the other issues you'd like to see addressed.

This thread woudn't have been started by Marius if there wasn't a desire to see the metadata.

Perrone Ford · August 3rd, 2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

This thread woudn't have been started by Marius if there wasn't a desire to see the metadata.

Again, don't get me wrong. I've made comments here as well about the desire to have metadata. And to have access to things I thing would be infinitely more useful while operating the camera like a shade mask based on your chosen aspect ratio. The "Guides" are a good start but having a mask lay over what is in or out of 4:3, 2.40, 1.85, would be incredibly helpful. Overscan would be nice so that we could see definitively what is IN and what is OUT would be HUGELY helpful for anyone trying to actually compose their frames, and especially to those who are shooting on sets, or using booms or other hanging gear.

Yes, I can imagine the power of metadata. And there are certainly times when it would be useful. Run and gun situations, or solo shooter situations come to mind. I am often solo shooter on my projects and I don't always "remember" what settings I used, but I do tend to try to stick to simple settings. I decide in advance what my frame-rate will be. If it's narrative work, I am metering my scenes to determine my dynamic range and aperature. And then I don't change them unless I am on auto-iris (on the stabilizer). My shutter speeds may change, but typically my shutter angles don't, so I don't tend to write that down.

Again, this mini-rant is not against having the meta-data. But more against the idea that it is somehow an insult that it's not there. Five years ago, none of us even KNEW we could have the metadata. Three years ago, RED showed it was possible to have that and a lot more in an "inexpensive" camera. I would suspect that was about the time the EX1 was being developed. The idea that a $7k camera would have the same metadata as a $40k camera package probably didn't occur to the cinealta folks. Heck the F900 didn't have it, why put it on a handycam? The fact that there might have been the foresight to embed it in the stream is BRILLIANT. And if they turn it on, I'll certainly be happy. Unless it coincides with not having SDHC access.. then I'll go back to camera reports!

Anyway, rant over. I was just releasing some steam. Gotta get this rough cut done tonight before I bring in the a-cam footage tomorrow..

Doug Jensen · August 3rd, 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

But more against the idea that it is somehow an insult that it's not there.

On that, we can agree 100%. Good luck with the edit.

Vincent Oliver · August 4th, 2009, 02:30 AM

Sorry for this very basic question.

I have been looking through the manual and doing other searches but can't find the information on what shutter speed is used when the front shutter switch is set to "Off".

I have kept this set to Off for most of my work, but shot a sequence last week (handheld) using 25p and it looked awful. I now use a shutter speed of 1/50 or 180' or higher and the shots look better.

Doug Jensen · August 4th, 2009, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver

what shutter speed is used when the front shutter switch is set to "Off".

When the shutter switch is OFF, the shutter speed matches the frame rate. For example, 30P is 1/30, 24P is 1/24, etc.

Vincent Oliver · August 4th, 2009, 05:08 AM

Thank you Doug, I thought this was the case, although I couldn't find this information in the manual. Certainly my handheld footage confirms this as well.

Back to school for me. :-(

David Herman · August 4th, 2009, 08:45 AM

I brought this up in another thread but as it's being discussed here I try again. I am a vortex dvd worshipper and am working in PAL land shooting 25P 50. The combo is giving me lousy results with even the slowest of follow pans. What might be the issues here if I went up to 30P and what shutter speed?

August 2nd, 2009, 06:12 PM	#1
Marius Boruch Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 421	clip information where to find detailed clip info - like shutter speed, gain setting etc.

August 2nd, 2009, 06:41 PM	#2
David C. Williams Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: melb.vic.au Posts: 447	Not 100% sure, but I don't think the EX does this. If you open an MXF in XDCAM Viewer and check metadata, it's not there... __________________ www.davidwilliams.com.au

August 3rd, 2009, 04:53 PM	#4
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	According to the EX engineers who I met with in Japan, the metadata information is already being saved. You just can't read it yet. Perhaps that will be changing soon . . . __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

August 3rd, 2009, 05:06 PM	#6
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	Perrone, I undersand what you are saying. A lot of people have unrealistic expectations about all kinds of things they expect cameras to do. But just look at all the metadata that even the cheapest $600 D-SLR provides. There's no reason an $8000 EX3 shouldn't be providing that same level of detail. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

August 3rd, 2009, 05:32 PM	#9
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,450	It's not fair to compare HD video to film. How many menu settings and other variables are there on a typical film camera? I'm not saying I'd want, or need, to see the data on every shot, but once in awhile it would be nice. And "once in a while" is likely to occur to me long after I gave any thought to writing down my settings. And how am I going to write down dozens of settings that might be changing 30 times per second? Think of what a great resource the metadata would be for novices and students. Can you imagine how great it would be for the student and/or instructor to actually look at what the camea was doing at any given time? That is powerful. And what about when it comes to grading footage in post? Wouldn't it be useful to see the camera settings that were used, when and/or if they changed, and how they may have differed from other cameras on the same shoot? I'm sure Sony has enough talented engineers on staff that any effort spent pefecting the metadata won't make any difference in the other issues you'd like to see addressed. This thread woudn't have been started by Marius if there wasn't a desire to see the metadata. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

August 2nd, 2009, 06:51 PM	#3
Marius Boruch Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 421	no, the important data is not there only useless time code; unbelievable!

August 3rd, 2009, 05:10 PM	#7
Marius Boruch Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 421	and here is surprise for you .... the same company - Sony did it on their HDR-XR500V $900 model. I can see gain, shutter, whithe balance setting... so I'd expect the same from $6K+ camera; it is not a rocket science btw- I have this camera (HDR-XR500V ) and it is BETTER low light thank Z5U and Z7U due to new ExmorR sensor - just amazing what just one year in technology can do ;-) see it here Sony HDR-XR500V low light test By Marius Boruch On ExposureRoom all shots hand held

August 4th, 2009, 02:30 AM	#12
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Sorry for this very basic question. I have been looking through the manual and doing other searches but can't find the information on what shutter speed is used when the front shutter switch is set to "Off". I have kept this set to Off for most of my work, but shot a sequence last week (handheld) using 25p and it looked awful. I now use a shutter speed of 1/50 or 180' or higher and the shots look better. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

August 4th, 2009, 05:08 AM	#14
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Thank you Doug, I thought this was the case, although I couldn't find this information in the manual. Certainly my handheld footage confirms this as well. Back to school for me. :-( __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

August 4th, 2009, 08:45 AM	#15
David Herman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: gloucestershire uk Posts: 93	I brought this up in another thread but as it's being discussed here I try again. I am a vortex dvd worshipper and am working in PAL land shooting 25P 50. The combo is giving me lousy results with even the slowest of follow pans. What might be the issues here if I went up to 30P and what shutter speed?