progressive or interlaced for SD TVC broadcast at DVinfo.net

Evan Meades · June 19th, 2009, 07:19 PM

Hi,

Just wondered what people are doing for broadcast tvc's. I've been sending sd MPEG2 interlaced (in Australia) but wondered if sd MPEG progressive would be better from 720p50?

I'd like smooth motion on footage & graphics which the 720p50 gives me editing in Final Cut HD sequence and sending to Compresser and output as MPEG2 720x576 widescreen....but interlaced or progressive?

Evan

David Heath · June 20th, 2009, 04:45 AM

Isn't this a question for your end client? What do they want you to deliver?

But it sounds as if you are shooting/editing 720p/50 for final delivery to SD. SD formats are by default interlaced, though it is possible to carry 25p material as psf (progressive, segmented field). What's important to realise is that SD 50p is not possible, so if you want to keep smooth 50Hz motion, you HAVE to downconvert to 576i/25, if you're happy with "film look" 25Hz motion, then 576psf/25 is an option.

You say you want "smooth motion on footage & graphics", so I think you have to output 576i/25.

Evan Meades · June 21st, 2009, 08:12 AM

Thanks David for responding. As it is the weekend, I couldn't get an answer readily from the satelite distributor but yes normally interlaced for SD although SBS TV here in Australia does apparently transmit sd 50p (the only broadcaster I believe) but maybe not for tvc's.

I have always sent SD interlaced but what I really was wondering is that the norm now.

Also, if I stay with progressive frames when editing, is motion blur (in post) the best accepted way to disguise any judder from fast motion, on graphics, text etc? (sending 576psf/25)

I've seen some awful local tvc's lately with interlaced or crossed fields (?) problems so just trying to get a consensus on what is the best sd broadcast formats (in Australia) considering both home viewing on CRT on LCD/Plasmas but originating from the EX3 and it's various progressive and interlaced HD formats.

Evan

Kevin Spahr · June 21st, 2009, 09:59 AM

It sounds like things there are the same as here in the states.

I find it amazing that when you deal with local TV that you can not get any technical details from these people. One would think they would have their requirements written and maybe even easy to download from their web sites. I have never been able to get ANY specific details from my local TV stations.

The last one, I even talked to the guy on the phone "what format should I use?", he says "we can handle any format - no problem" - needless to say they couldn't, even after the second attempt when they asked for a H.264 file. They could play them but were unable to upload either to the satellite and we missed the window. Then I suggested we come up with a workflow or email me with the exact format that will work for them next time, I bet it will never happen it's been four weeks now.

It almost makes one think they don't want to handle material produced outside of their control.

David Heath · June 21st, 2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan Meades

........normally interlaced for SD although SBS TV here in Australia does apparently transmit sd 50p (the only broadcaster I believe) but maybe not for tvc's.

At the risk of sounding pedantic I don't think 576p/50 is really counted as SD, I think it's more proper to call it an HD format. (Albeit at the very lowest end, and I seem to remember it also being referred to as "enhanced TV"??) I can't think of a single camera which originates it natively, so it seems a strange choice for a transmission format.

Quote:

I have always sent SD interlaced but what I really was wondering is that the norm now.

........ originating from the EX3 and it's various progressive and interlaced HD formats.

From a transmission point of view, 576i/25 and 576psf/25 are identical, so I doubt any broadcaster would worry from a technical standpoint. The differences are really down to how motion looks - smooth for i/25, "filmic" for psf/25, which is more a matter of preference. Psf is effectively how films have been shown over telecine for years - progressive images carried over an interlaced TV system.

If you've got an EX3 and you're primarily producing for SD, I'd say originate 1080p/25 if you want to end up 576psf/25, originate 720p/50 if you want to end up 576i/25.

Markus Klatt · June 28th, 2009, 12:40 PM

May I hijack this thread since I have a similar question?

Middle of next week I have to deliver ~5minutes of footage to local and national TV stations here in Germany. They mostly send in 16:9 PAL interlaced, there is no HD here in Germany :( The footage will be filmed at late evening, I have to prepare and deliver few hours later.

For quality reasons I will film with my EX1, not with a 4:3 Sony VX2100 (which would be easier). I gain good results from both, deinterlaced/downscaled 1080/50i and downscaled 720/50p. I do not know, what the TV stations expect, but I should use most usable format even for the smaller local stations.
And I have another problem: I have to upload the final video to my servers. So I cannot upload eg. a mxf from EX1 and a additionally downscaled version. With my slow upload speed (1 MBit/sec) I think I could upload 1 GB of video in the early night after the footage was shot and converted.

My questions:
- I think its best to downscale to anamorphic 16:9 PAL in 720x576 resolution. Am I right?
- shell I deliver 25p or is 50i more flexible for the stations?
- what codec should I use to deliver? mpeg2 with 15 or more MBits? H.264? What gives best possible quality, is flexible to use for TV stations and is not huge in size because of uploading?

Thanks for any hint in advance!

Evan Meades · June 28th, 2009, 07:17 PM

Hi Markus, I would think if the footage is simply a source to be edited by the station then best to keep it in a format they prefer and not transcode it. But if it's a final edited piece the I think the format would be mpeg2 for broadcast. Might be tough uploading some big files though!

I really think you should ask them what they prefer! They may be okay with the raw EX files.

Oh by the way, for my sd tvc's here in Australia, I've settled on progressive all the way and have done some tests with my satellite delivery company to check...all good!

Markus Klatt · June 29th, 2009, 03:13 AM

Thanks for your input!

I do not know the TV stations which will use the footage. The footage will be announced through a press list and can be used for any trailer or news thread to pronounce a 3-day-festival which will take place next week. I have to cut the footage (demo fireworks) to avoid pauses (=dark footage) before delivery.
I will try to ask at least one local station today or tomorrow but in the moment I am blind and furthermore limited because of the need to upload.

At the moment I tend to
- film in 1280x720/50p (or 1920x1080/50i which is even better downconverted to 1280x720/25p)
- convert to 1280x720/25p with VBR 18 MBit using H.264 in mp4 container
- and convert to anamorphic 720x576/25p with VBR 15 MBit using MPEG2

If I would know if the small local stations are able to render good PAL out from 1280x720/25p I would just deliver that format with VBR 25 MBit using H.264...

Markus Klatt · July 1st, 2009, 03:15 AM

So, in the meantime I've spoken with several local and large national TV stations here in Germany (PAL-country).
They LOVE material from EX1 and they mostly want to have them nativly in 720/50p for downconverting it to anamorphic 16:9 PAL 720x576/50i

So I will just rewrap and maybe in-out-cut the clips in my Sony ClipBrowser 2.5 on Windows and will upload the created mxf-files to my servers.

We will see how it works ;)

Evan Meades · July 4th, 2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Klatt

So, in the meantime I've spoken with several local and large national TV stations here in Germany (PAL-country).
They LOVE material from EX1 and they mostly want to have them nativly in 720/50p for downconverting it to anamorphic 16:9 PAL 720x576/50i

So I will just rewrap and maybe in-out-cut the clips in my Sony ClipBrowser 2.5 on Windows and will upload the created mxf-files to my servers.

We will see how it works ;)

Good one Markus. Yeah I shoot the 720/50P which does work well for me. I wish the EX3 shot 1080/50P...now that would be great! Glad you found a solution...although the uploads would still be pretty big I guess!

Evan

Markus Klatt · July 4th, 2009, 01:59 AM

It worked, the uploading of 3GB took the whole night with 1MBit speed.

I did not see any results yet but there were no complaints. This could mean "all was fine" or "they did not use it at all" ;)

Frank Brodkorb · July 4th, 2009, 02:08 AM

Things got worse in the last years, since everyone expects your material looking the same on ANY screen from cinema to mobile phone.

It is not gonna happen (yet).

SD is still broadcasted in fields. Now half of the population don`t has a display that can display fields, because they have one of those posh new flat TVs. They sport a cheap half baked deinterlacer chip that - more or less - throws away half of the vertical resolution. So you end up with youtube resolution, blown up to a full HD screen, when ever there is some motion and you have no controll over the quality anymore.

But most of the guys won´t see that anyway.

Frank

June 19th, 2009, 07:19 PM	#1
Evan Meades Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 68	progressive or interlaced for SD TVC broadcast Hi, Just wondered what people are doing for broadcast tvc's. I've been sending sd MPEG2 interlaced (in Australia) but wondered if sd MPEG progressive would be better from 720p50? I'd like smooth motion on footage & graphics which the 720p50 gives me editing in Final Cut HD sequence and sending to Compresser and output as MPEG2 720x576 widescreen....but interlaced or progressive? Evan

June 20th, 2009, 04:45 AM	#2
David Heath Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,699	Isn't this a question for your end client? What do they want you to deliver? But it sounds as if you are shooting/editing 720p/50 for final delivery to SD. SD formats are by default interlaced, though it is possible to carry 25p material as psf (progressive, segmented field). What's important to realise is that SD 50p is not possible, so if you want to keep smooth 50Hz motion, you HAVE to downconvert to 576i/25, if you're happy with "film look" 25Hz motion, then 576psf/25 is an option. You say you want "smooth motion on footage & graphics", so I think you have to output 576i/25.

June 21st, 2009, 08:12 AM	#3
Evan Meades Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 68	Thanks David for responding. As it is the weekend, I couldn't get an answer readily from the satelite distributor but yes normally interlaced for SD although SBS TV here in Australia does apparently transmit sd 50p (the only broadcaster I believe) but maybe not for tvc's. I have always sent SD interlaced but what I really was wondering is that the norm now. Also, if I stay with progressive frames when editing, is motion blur (in post) the best accepted way to disguise any judder from fast motion, on graphics, text etc? (sending 576psf/25) I've seen some awful local tvc's lately with interlaced or crossed fields (?) problems so just trying to get a consensus on what is the best sd broadcast formats (in Australia) considering both home viewing on CRT on LCD/Plasmas but originating from the EX3 and it's various progressive and interlaced HD formats. Evan

June 21st, 2009, 09:59 AM	#4
Kevin Spahr Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Carlisle, PA Posts: 451	It sounds like things there are the same as here in the states. I find it amazing that when you deal with local TV that you can not get any technical details from these people. One would think they would have their requirements written and maybe even easy to download from their web sites. I have never been able to get ANY specific details from my local TV stations. The last one, I even talked to the guy on the phone "what format should I use?", he says "we can handle any format - no problem" - needless to say they couldn't, even after the second attempt when they asked for a H.264 file. They could play them but were unable to upload either to the satellite and we missed the window. Then I suggested we come up with a workflow or email me with the exact format that will work for them next time, I bet it will never happen it's been four weeks now. It almost makes one think they don't want to handle material produced outside of their control.

June 28th, 2009, 12:40 PM	#6
Markus Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 169	May I hijack this thread since I have a similar question? Middle of next week I have to deliver ~5minutes of footage to local and national TV stations here in Germany. They mostly send in 16:9 PAL interlaced, there is no HD here in Germany :( The footage will be filmed at late evening, I have to prepare and deliver few hours later. For quality reasons I will film with my EX1, not with a 4:3 Sony VX2100 (which would be easier). I gain good results from both, deinterlaced/downscaled 1080/50i and downscaled 720/50p. I do not know, what the TV stations expect, but I should use most usable format even for the smaller local stations. And I have another problem: I have to upload the final video to my servers. So I cannot upload eg. a mxf from EX1 and a additionally downscaled version. With my slow upload speed (1 MBit/sec) I think I could upload 1 GB of video in the early night after the footage was shot and converted. My questions: - I think its best to downscale to anamorphic 16:9 PAL in 720x576 resolution. Am I right? - shell I deliver 25p or is 50i more flexible for the stations? - what codec should I use to deliver? mpeg2 with 15 or more MBits? H.264? What gives best possible quality, is flexible to use for TV stations and is not huge in size because of uploading? Thanks for any hint in advance!

June 28th, 2009, 07:17 PM	#7
Evan Meades Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 68	Hi Markus, I would think if the footage is simply a source to be edited by the station then best to keep it in a format they prefer and not transcode it. But if it's a final edited piece the I think the format would be mpeg2 for broadcast. Might be tough uploading some big files though! I really think you should ask them what they prefer! They may be okay with the raw EX files. Oh by the way, for my sd tvc's here in Australia, I've settled on progressive all the way and have done some tests with my satellite delivery company to check...all good!

June 29th, 2009, 03:13 AM	#8
Markus Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 169	Thanks for your input! I do not know the TV stations which will use the footage. The footage will be announced through a press list and can be used for any trailer or news thread to pronounce a 3-day-festival which will take place next week. I have to cut the footage (demo fireworks) to avoid pauses (=dark footage) before delivery. I will try to ask at least one local station today or tomorrow but in the moment I am blind and furthermore limited because of the need to upload. At the moment I tend to - film in 1280x720/50p (or 1920x1080/50i which is even better downconverted to 1280x720/25p) - convert to 1280x720/25p with VBR 18 MBit using H.264 in mp4 container - and convert to anamorphic 720x576/25p with VBR 15 MBit using MPEG2 If I would know if the small local stations are able to render good PAL out from 1280x720/25p I would just deliver that format with VBR 25 MBit using H.264...

July 1st, 2009, 03:15 AM	#9
Markus Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 169	So, in the meantime I've spoken with several local and large national TV stations here in Germany (PAL-country). They LOVE material from EX1 and they mostly want to have them nativly in 720/50p for downconverting it to anamorphic 16:9 PAL 720x576/50i So I will just rewrap and maybe in-out-cut the clips in my Sony ClipBrowser 2.5 on Windows and will upload the created mxf-files to my servers. We will see how it works ;)

July 4th, 2009, 01:59 AM	#11
Markus Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 169	It worked, the uploading of 3GB took the whole night with 1MBit speed. I did not see any results yet but there were no complaints. This could mean "all was fine" or "they did not use it at all" ;)

July 4th, 2009, 02:08 AM	#12
Frank Brodkorb Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Stillwater Oklahoma Posts: 39	Things got worse in the last years, since everyone expects your material looking the same on ANY screen from cinema to mobile phone. It is not gonna happen (yet). SD is still broadcasted in fields. Now half of the population don`t has a display that can display fields, because they have one of those posh new flat TVs. They sport a cheap half baked deinterlacer chip that - more or less - throws away half of the vertical resolution. So you end up with youtube resolution, blown up to a full HD screen, when ever there is some motion and you have no controll over the quality anymore. But most of the guys won´t see that anyway. Frank