Consensus on mode for eliminating fast pan artifacts? at DVinfo.net

John Peterson · May 18th, 2009, 06:05 AM

I was wondering what the consensus was for shooting scenes that require fast pans such as sporting events. The judder and other problems are pronounced with the EX1 when you do that so what do you do when you have to shoot using fast pans. Shoot SD?
Even medium speed pans seem to exhibit these problems in the HD modes.

John

Bo Skelmose · May 18th, 2009, 06:16 AM

The EX1 and EX3 are absolutely capable of fast panning, but if you use 25P wou will have some stuttering effect - specially when you use the shutter too. What you can do - all ends up with what your material is for - is it for Broadcast television you have to use 1080i or 720 50p. Then you will not miss any frame information in your recordings to make sports look good in a 625i movie (Pal land). In my nature documentaries I use 720 25p and interlace it before I use it in a SD project for broadcast - it will take some of the stuttering - but i guess it will not be good enough for sports.

Craig Seeman · May 18th, 2009, 09:02 AM

The EX 24p is no different than any other video camera's 24p as far as temporal resolution goes. There is NO more judder.

Sports requires temporal resolution. Shoot at 720p60 or 1080i60.

You need proper monitoring that can play back 23.98p either natively or properly added pull down on the fly.

You need to understand basic cinematographic rules on panning when shooting 24p.

Don't blame the camera for inadequate screening practices or not observing basic panning guides for the frame rate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

I was wondering what the consensus was for shooting scenes that require fast pans such as sporting events. The judder and other problems are pronounced with the EX1 when you do that so what do you do when you have to shoot using fast pans. Shoot SD?
Even medium speed pans seem to exhibit these problems in the HD modes.

John

Phil Askey · May 18th, 2009, 09:29 AM

I've had no issues at 720p50 with a sensible shutter speed (ideally 1/500 sec or 1/250 sec).

Olof Ekbergh · May 18th, 2009, 10:17 AM

24P basic rule is 7 seconds for any object to travel all the way across the screen.

Normally 24P is 1/48 sec or 180⋅ (degrees).

If you use faster shutter speed you will get a very strobing effect (sometimes called Private Ryan look). This is even true for 50p or 60p.

John Peterson · May 18th, 2009, 01:08 PM

Double post - sorry

John Peterson · May 18th, 2009, 01:13 PM

Thanks for the responses,

Well I notice the problem at 1080/ 60i as well. If I do a quick pan across the scene I cannot get the same smooth blurring effect I can get with a DV camera like the VX2000 for example. To my eyes it looks terrible. I also don't like the way it looks when shooting a stage production because I like to move the camera to the beat at times and it breaks up the picture too much with the EX1. Maybe shooting 720p is in fact a better idea because of the higher temporal resolution of progressive. The final delivery format is SD DVD which is an ongoing discussion in terms of the best way to that end on these forums using EX1 and Ex3.

I don't mess much with the shutter speed on the EX1 I'll admit.
What shutter speed do you all recommend for this effect when shooting 1080i or 720p? 1/250th or 1/500th as Phil suggested?

John

Olof Ekbergh · May 18th, 2009, 02:19 PM

If you leave the shutter off in 1080 60i it will be 1/60th. and that should give you blur like any betacam or dvcam.

How do you view your footage?

HD or SD, this is a HD camera and you will get varying results when down converting to SD. SD is best viewed on a NTSC or PAL/SECAM interlaced monitor.

I use M100 to down convert through an AJA HDe. It takes a while but it is very clean.

In my opinion FCP does not do a good job of down converting.

Jason Bodnar · May 18th, 2009, 05:05 PM

John, I shoot Motocross, and most of the time I have plenty of light at the track and shoot 1/500 and even 1/1000 for shutter speed, this really helps with grabing still frames from the footage as well. However it is all about what you are trying to achieve, Sometimes I like to keep my motion blur.

John Peterson · May 18th, 2009, 07:03 PM

Thanks for the responses. I think I will increase the shutter speed and see how it looks.

John

May 18th, 2009, 06:05 AM	#1
John Peterson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Monroe, NY Posts: 703	Consensus on mode for eliminating fast pan artifacts? I was wondering what the consensus was for shooting scenes that require fast pans such as sporting events. The judder and other problems are pronounced with the EX1 when you do that so what do you do when you have to shoot using fast pans. Shoot SD? Even medium speed pans seem to exhibit these problems in the HD modes. John

May 18th, 2009, 01:08 PM	#6
John Peterson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Monroe, NY Posts: 703	Double post - sorry Last edited by John Peterson; May 18th, 2009 at 07:03 PM. Reason: double post

May 18th, 2009, 06:16 AM	#2
Bo Skelmose Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 495	The EX1 and EX3 are absolutely capable of fast panning, but if you use 25P wou will have some stuttering effect - specially when you use the shutter too. What you can do - all ends up with what your material is for - is it for Broadcast television you have to use 1080i or 720 50p. Then you will not miss any frame information in your recordings to make sports look good in a 625i movie (Pal land). In my nature documentaries I use 720 25p and interlace it before I use it in a SD project for broadcast - it will take some of the stuttering - but i guess it will not be good enough for sports.

May 18th, 2009, 09:29 AM	#4
Phil Askey Digital Photography Review Join Date: May 2009 Location: London, UK Posts: 3	I've had no issues at 720p50 with a sensible shutter speed (ideally 1/500 sec or 1/250 sec).

May 18th, 2009, 10:17 AM	#5
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	24P basic rule is 7 seconds for any object to travel all the way across the screen. Normally 24P is 1/48 sec or 180⋅ (degrees). If you use faster shutter speed you will get a very strobing effect (sometimes called Private Ryan look). This is even true for 50p or 60p.

May 18th, 2009, 01:13 PM	#7
John Peterson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Monroe, NY Posts: 703	Thanks for the responses, Well I notice the problem at 1080/ 60i as well. If I do a quick pan across the scene I cannot get the same smooth blurring effect I can get with a DV camera like the VX2000 for example. To my eyes it looks terrible. I also don't like the way it looks when shooting a stage production because I like to move the camera to the beat at times and it breaks up the picture too much with the EX1. Maybe shooting 720p is in fact a better idea because of the higher temporal resolution of progressive. The final delivery format is SD DVD which is an ongoing discussion in terms of the best way to that end on these forums using EX1 and Ex3. I don't mess much with the shutter speed on the EX1 I'll admit. What shutter speed do you all recommend for this effect when shooting 1080i or 720p? 1/250th or 1/500th as Phil suggested? John

May 18th, 2009, 02:19 PM	#8
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	If you leave the shutter off in 1080 60i it will be 1/60th. and that should give you blur like any betacam or dvcam. How do you view your footage? HD or SD, this is a HD camera and you will get varying results when down converting to SD. SD is best viewed on a NTSC or PAL/SECAM interlaced monitor. I use M100 to down convert through an AJA HDe. It takes a while but it is very clean. In my opinion FCP does not do a good job of down converting.

May 18th, 2009, 05:05 PM	#9
Jason Bodnar Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 376	John, I shoot Motocross, and most of the time I have plenty of light at the track and shoot 1/500 and even 1/1000 for shutter speed, this really helps with grabing still frames from the footage as well. However it is all about what you are trying to achieve, Sometimes I like to keep my motion blur.

May 18th, 2009, 07:03 PM	#10
John Peterson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Monroe, NY Posts: 703	Thanks for the responses. I think I will increase the shutter speed and see how it looks. John