Clip Browser didn't see shot! at DVinfo.net

Leonard Levy · April 27th, 2009, 10:31 PM

I am in the midst of troubleshooting a very disturbing occurance with clip browser 2.5 that I don't understand.

I shot and completely filled a 16G SxS card. In fact, he card ran out when the camera was accidently rolling. It did not span to another card (unless that shot is also mysteriously missing).

When I put it in clip browser it said something was wrong and it needed to be put back in the camera to be repaired. (I forget the exact message).

I did that and indeed the camera said the media needed to be restored. (again i don't recall the exact message) . This seemed to be done fine

However when I put the card back in clip browser it does not show nor does it copy the last clip which was significant and lengthy. I can see this shot in the thumbnails on the camera however.

I copied the card again using drag and drop, and then looked at it in both Clip Browser and XDCAM transfer. Clip Browser does not show the last clip in the copy of the card either.

However - XDCAM Transfer sees the last clip (and can play it fine) both on the original card and the "finder copied" version of the card.

XDCAM Transfer does not see this clip on the copy that Clip Browser made on my ahrd drive.

This is scary! If hadn't been curious about looking for a shot I would not have noticed this was missing.

I had just been convinced that Clip Browser was much safer than the finder to copy cards, but now I am not sure at all. I almost lost something important and after 3 years of drag and drop that never happened.

Lenny Levy

Comments Please - Similar experiences anyone

Lenny Levy

Ian Planchon · April 28th, 2009, 08:27 AM

I had a similar experience yesterday....I transfered the bpav files to my hard drive, and opened clip browser, noticed that clip browser was seeing everything out of order, and missing a bunch of clips. but when I unplugged the camera, the clips were still on the camera. so I had re open clip browser and individually find the clips, and import them.

the out of order thing really bothered me.

I am using clip browser 2.0.

Leonard Levy · April 28th, 2009, 08:30 AM

it didn't lose clips altogether though. This is deadly serious.

Mike Chandler · April 28th, 2009, 08:30 AM

I think there's a myth--or at least a misperception-- being perpetuated on the forum that users are citing incidents of clips being lost by using the finder. Maybe I have not done a thorough enough search, but it appears that in this forum only one case has been reported where clips were lost, (and in that case Roger states, "I know why this happened, my associate didn't use the clip browser to copy the files," but where the problem appears to have been solved by using the finder).

In four other cases (including yours & Ian's), it was Clip Browser itself that caused the problem, and in a fifth case it's unclear if the finder or CB was used.

And in a thread asking for any users of finder to tell about their lost files, no users responded. ( in multiple threads, users in fact report the opposite.)

Maybe CB is not the seat belt it's claimed to be, but rather a leaking master cylinder. I understand that CRC verifies files, but Sony's warning about using CB mentions copying individual clips only, not the entire folder. It also means that the EX system would have been released with no reliable way to transfer files, as early CB's did not have CRC. As Keith states in one of the threads, a software program like Chronosync also verifies, and maybe it's better to use the finder with a program like that.

I'd like to believe the Clip Browser with CRC is a fail-safe, but so far the evidence is not supporting it. Perhaps there are finder/explorer users who have yet to come forward with their problems, or posts on other forums in support of the contention that copying folders with finder/explorer loses clips.

http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/newreply...te=1&p=1134233 where using CB w/out CRC did not work

Clip Browser 2.5 conversion problem - The Digital Video Information Network a problem using CB to export, probably related to Vegas

Corrupted BPAV folder (Any fix?) - The Digital Video Information Network where Roger says the reason for lost files was that CB was not used, but where using the finder to move the files appears to have solved the problem

Problems from Drag & Drop? - The Digital Video Information Network where you ask if anyone has had a problem using drag and drop and no one responds that they have

CRC is for wimps - or? - The Digital Video Information Network where CB is touted but no examples are given of lost files due to its non-use (1 incident where Vincent reports what sounds like human error) and where Ola points out that you can't use CRC at every step of the backup chain (such as burning blu-rays with Toast)

How to recuperate lost clips on an SxS card - The Digital Video Information Network where using CB lost clips (doesn't say if CRC was on or not), but again, the loss was not from using the finder

Clip Browser 2.0 - The Digital Video Information Network where last clip in folder was lost, not stated whether CB was used to transfer or not

Leonard Levy · April 28th, 2009, 09:10 AM

Thanks Mike,
That's some good research. You're right that no one came forward when I asked for examples on my thread.

I got into this question when asked to review "Shotput" for my local user group. I emailed them and they said they heard from people every week that they had some kind of loss through drag and drop.

However when I asked for references they didn't produce any. I don't mean to imply they waren't being truthful, but I still ended up without any examples or people to call. Perhaps they had been using clip browser!?!

By the way I did try copying this card with "Shotput" and it did it correctly.

What concerns me is that in my preferences I had "priority in move" set to "data protection" and "perform CRC check after copying" both checked off. So what the hexx was it checking anyway? This was a 40 min clip that it just didn't see.

Now I assume this has something to do with the fact that Clip Browser said the card info was damaged and need to be repaired by the camera. I may have dropped that card after shooting and before transferring also. It was a rushed time and I know I dropped one card, but it wasn't a big fall and these cards are supposed to be very durable.

Here's another question, If the camera can repair a card, why can't Sony put that ability into clip browser? Wouldn't that make more sense?

Lenny

David Issko · April 28th, 2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Planchon

I am using clip browser 2.0.

It may be best to upgrade to 2.5
Cheers

Ed Kukla · April 28th, 2009, 06:30 PM

...I seem to recall that all the lost clips discussed are the last clip shot and/or the clip runs onto another card. Did I misread this?

Leonard Levy · April 28th, 2009, 11:44 PM

It is true in my case.

Do you guys know who to contact at Sony about this. It is Sony software isn't it? Wasn't there a Sony rep who people here contacted about other issues like backfocus and IR issues?

I don't see how anyone can trust a program that just might happen to miss one of your shots.

This seems far more dangerous than drag and drop. As you can see I'm alarmed and very disappointed.

Lenny Levy

Bob Grant · April 29th, 2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard Levy

It is true in my case. <snip>

Lenny Levy

Is it that this was the last clip or a clip that ran to another card?

Regarding the general issue of how reliable any of these processes are it's very difficult to get an accurate picture.
I've had one paniced EX1 shooter think he'd lost several clips and I think he posted about it here. As it turned out he was using Vegas 7 and the XDCAM HD Explorer to handle the MXF files. Mostly this worked, apart from 3 clips that loaded just fine into Vegas 8 on my system. He updated to Vegas 8 and all was well.

What worries me is this issue of missing or corrupted clips isn't new. As a past lurker in another forum I recall reading posts about the same issues with P2 cards.

Leonard Levy · April 29th, 2009, 01:22 AM

This was not a spanned clip. It was the last clip on a card that i had accidentally left the camera rolling on when I took it to the download station. Not realizing it was still rolling and in a rush under pressure, I just ejected the card.
When the card was opened by clip browser it declared that it had a damaged file structure (or something I don't remember) and said to put it back in the camera again to do a "restore".

Did that and the camera said it was repaired.

Put it back in clip browser and clip browser saw 3 clips and copied them onto a hard disk. Everything seemed fine till later I noticed I couldn't find a 40 min shot and I realized it should have been on that card.
Put the card back in the camera and low and behold there was the 4th clip (40 min) . Put it back in clip browser - it does not appear, and clip browser is not copying it.

So I copy with drag and drop. The full card copies completely. Look at that folder with Log and Transfer - again the 4th clip is visible and it imports no problem into FCP.
However if I look at that folder with clip browser- again I only see 3 clips.

I could have caught this if I had compared the size of the card with the size of the files in clip browser but I need a copy program that will do this for me - IO thopught that's what error protection was supposed to be about.

Lenny

Ed Kukla · April 29th, 2009, 05:45 AM

Ahhh...you ejected while rolling! I've read of ejecting while the red light is still on right after stopping recording, an issue with SDHC cards where the red light takes longer to turn green.

Juan Martinez · May 5th, 2009, 09:46 AM

Mr. Leonard Levy et al,

The "Media needs to be Restored" message is issued when the camera detects foreign folders/files or any other possible structural issues in the card. The most common cause is when using Mac OS "Finder" to read or copy the content of a card. Finder creates a DS folder and writes indexing data to it. The camera detects the foreign folder/files and checks the card contents for integrity. Another reason for restore media would be if the card is extracted or the AC power supply was cut (with no battery in the camera) while the camera was recording. When this happens, the last clip is not properly closed and unreadable. The restore media function recovers the clip and writes content management data to the SMI file so the card functions normally.

We are investigating the issue you experienced. The first step is to try to duplicate it in our lab. By now, an engineer from or Product Operational Support Team should have contacted you to follow up. Please collaborate with our POSC team. We need to replicate the exact set of conditions so we may reproduce this issue in our lab.

Best,
Juan Martinez
Sony Electronics

Bill Parker · May 5th, 2009, 01:32 PM

Check put this thread. I actually did lose a clip - the only one so far. I attribute it to not having reformatted my card which I now do all the time because of this experience. I don't actually know what caused it to happen, but it's the most logical solution I could come up with. Do the rest of you reformat your cards?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...irst-clip.html

Leonard Levy · May 5th, 2009, 04:05 PM

Thank you Juan,

I'm glad to see you guys taking this seriously.

Lenny

Mike Chandler · May 7th, 2009, 07:00 AM

Juan : There have been a great many posts and threads concerning the use of the finder vs. Clip Browser and CRC. Using certain older macbooks in the field (non-Intel) does not allow for CB/CRC--is this unacceptable? Many people on the forum continue to copy the BPAV with the finder with no problem, while the counter-argument is that they've just been lucky. On the other hand, several people have reported lost or corrupted clips when using CB, but it's hard to judge whether there were other conditions operating, such as not using CRC while using CB or (as in Larry's case), interrupting recording.

Would you mind taking a moment on the forum to educate us as to the technical differences between the two methods and explain why one is (or is not) preferable to the other?

April 27th, 2009, 10:31 PM	#1
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Clip Browser didn't see shot! I am in the midst of troubleshooting a very disturbing occurance with clip browser 2.5 that I don't understand. I shot and completely filled a 16G SxS card. In fact, he card ran out when the camera was accidently rolling. It did not span to another card (unless that shot is also mysteriously missing). When I put it in clip browser it said something was wrong and it needed to be put back in the camera to be repaired. (I forget the exact message). I did that and indeed the camera said the media needed to be restored. (again i don't recall the exact message) . This seemed to be done fine However when I put the card back in clip browser it does not show nor does it copy the last clip which was significant and lengthy. I can see this shot in the thumbnails on the camera however. I copied the card again using drag and drop, and then looked at it in both Clip Browser and XDCAM transfer. Clip Browser does not show the last clip in the copy of the card either. However - XDCAM Transfer sees the last clip (and can play it fine) both on the original card and the "finder copied" version of the card. XDCAM Transfer does not see this clip on the copy that Clip Browser made on my ahrd drive. This is scary! If hadn't been curious about looking for a shot I would not have noticed this was missing. I had just been convinced that Clip Browser was much safer than the finder to copy cards, but now I am not sure at all. I almost lost something important and after 3 years of drag and drop that never happened. Lenny Levy Comments Please - Similar experiences anyone Lenny Levy

April 28th, 2009, 08:30 AM	#4
Mike Chandler Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Moab, UT Posts: 264	I think there's a myth--or at least a misperception-- being perpetuated on the forum that users are citing incidents of clips being lost by using the finder. Maybe I have not done a thorough enough search, but it appears that in this forum only one case has been reported where clips were lost, (and in that case Roger states, "I know why this happened, my associate didn't use the clip browser to copy the files," but where the problem appears to have been solved by using the finder). In four other cases (including yours & Ian's), it was Clip Browser itself that caused the problem, and in a fifth case it's unclear if the finder or CB was used. And in a thread asking for any users of finder to tell about their lost files, no users responded. ( in multiple threads, users in fact report the opposite.) Maybe CB is not the seat belt it's claimed to be, but rather a leaking master cylinder. I understand that CRC verifies files, but Sony's warning about using CB mentions copying individual clips only, not the entire folder. It also means that the EX system would have been released with no reliable way to transfer files, as early CB's did not have CRC. As Keith states in one of the threads, a software program like Chronosync also verifies, and maybe it's better to use the finder with a program like that. I'd like to believe the Clip Browser with CRC is a fail-safe, but so far the evidence is not supporting it. Perhaps there are finder/explorer users who have yet to come forward with their problems, or posts on other forums in support of the contention that copying folders with finder/explorer loses clips. http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/newreply...te=1&p=1134233 where using CB w/out CRC did not work Clip Browser 2.5 conversion problem - The Digital Video Information Network a problem using CB to export, probably related to Vegas Corrupted BPAV folder (Any fix?) - The Digital Video Information Network where Roger says the reason for lost files was that CB was not used, but where using the finder to move the files appears to have solved the problem Problems from Drag & Drop? - The Digital Video Information Network where you ask if anyone has had a problem using drag and drop and no one responds that they have CRC is for wimps - or? - The Digital Video Information Network where CB is touted but no examples are given of lost files due to its non-use (1 incident where Vincent reports what sounds like human error) and where Ola points out that you can't use CRC at every step of the backup chain (such as burning blu-rays with Toast) How to recuperate lost clips on an SxS card - The Digital Video Information Network where using CB lost clips (doesn't say if CRC was on or not), but again, the loss was not from using the finder Clip Browser 2.0 - The Digital Video Information Network where last clip in folder was lost, not stated whether CB was used to transfer or not __________________ www.packcreekproductions.com EX3, Mac Pro, FCP Last edited by Mike Chandler; April 28th, 2009 at 08:38 AM. Reason: update

April 28th, 2009, 06:30 PM	#7
Ed Kukla Major Player Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: All over, USA Posts: 512	not sure, but... ...I seem to recall that all the lost clips discussed are the last clip shot and/or the clip runs onto another card. Did I misread this?

April 28th, 2009, 11:44 PM	#8
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	It is true in my case. Do you guys know who to contact at Sony about this. It is Sony software isn't it? Wasn't there a Sony rep who people here contacted about other issues like backfocus and IR issues? I don't see how anyone can trust a program that just might happen to miss one of your shots. This seems far more dangerous than drag and drop. As you can see I'm alarmed and very disappointed. Lenny Levy Last edited by Leonard Levy; April 29th, 2009 at 09:08 AM.

May 5th, 2009, 01:32 PM	#13
Bill Parker Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cambridge MA Posts: 207	Check put this thread. I actually did lose a clip - the only one so far. I attribute it to not having reformatted my card which I now do all the time because of this experience. I don't actually know what caused it to happen, but it's the most logical solution I could come up with. Do the rest of you reformat your cards? http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...irst-clip.html __________________ Bill Parker www.hindsightmedia.net

April 28th, 2009, 08:27 AM	#2
Ian Planchon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: an Alaskan living in Des Moines, Iowa Posts: 513	I had a similar experience yesterday....I transfered the bpav files to my hard drive, and opened clip browser, noticed that clip browser was seeing everything out of order, and missing a bunch of clips. but when I unplugged the camera, the clips were still on the camera. so I had re open clip browser and individually find the clips, and import them. the out of order thing really bothered me. I am using clip browser 2.0.

April 28th, 2009, 09:10 AM	#5
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Thanks Mike, That's some good research. You're right that no one came forward when I asked for examples on my thread. I got into this question when asked to review "Shotput" for my local user group. I emailed them and they said they heard from people every week that they had some kind of loss through drag and drop. However when I asked for references they didn't produce any. I don't mean to imply they waren't being truthful, but I still ended up without any examples or people to call. Perhaps they had been using clip browser!?! By the way I did try copying this card with "Shotput" and it did it correctly. What concerns me is that in my preferences I had "priority in move" set to "data protection" and "perform CRC check after copying" both checked off. So what the hexx was it checking anyway? This was a 40 min clip that it just didn't see. Now I assume this has something to do with the fact that Clip Browser said the card info was damaged and need to be repaired by the camera. I may have dropped that card after shooting and before transferring also. It was a rushed time and I know I dropped one card, but it wasn't a big fall and these cards are supposed to be very durable. Here's another question, If the camera can repair a card, why can't Sony put that ability into clip browser? Wouldn't that make more sense? Lenny

April 29th, 2009, 01:22 AM	#10
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	This was not a spanned clip. It was the last clip on a card that i had accidentally left the camera rolling on when I took it to the download station. Not realizing it was still rolling and in a rush under pressure, I just ejected the card. When the card was opened by clip browser it declared that it had a damaged file structure (or something I don't remember) and said to put it back in the camera again to do a "restore". Did that and the camera said it was repaired. Put it back in clip browser and clip browser saw 3 clips and copied them onto a hard disk. Everything seemed fine till later I noticed I couldn't find a 40 min shot and I realized it should have been on that card. Put the card back in the camera and low and behold there was the 4th clip (40 min) . Put it back in clip browser - it does not appear, and clip browser is not copying it. So I copy with drag and drop. The full card copies completely. Look at that folder with Log and Transfer - again the 4th clip is visible and it imports no problem into FCP. However if I look at that folder with clip browser- again I only see 3 clips. I could have caught this if I had compared the size of the card with the size of the files in clip browser but I need a copy program that will do this for me - IO thopught that's what error protection was supposed to be about. Lenny

April 29th, 2009, 05:45 AM	#11
Ed Kukla Major Player Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: All over, USA Posts: 512	Ahhh...you ejected while rolling! I've read of ejecting while the red light is still on right after stopping recording, an issue with SDHC cards where the red light takes longer to turn green.

May 5th, 2009, 09:46 AM	#12
Juan Martinez Sony Electronics Join Date: May 2007 Location: Park Ridge, New Jersey Posts: 18	Mr. Leonard Levy et al, The "Media needs to be Restored" message is issued when the camera detects foreign folders/files or any other possible structural issues in the card. The most common cause is when using Mac OS "Finder" to read or copy the content of a card. Finder creates a DS folder and writes indexing data to it. The camera detects the foreign folder/files and checks the card contents for integrity. Another reason for restore media would be if the card is extracted or the AC power supply was cut (with no battery in the camera) while the camera was recording. When this happens, the last clip is not properly closed and unreadable. The restore media function recovers the clip and writes content management data to the SMI file so the card functions normally. We are investigating the issue you experienced. The first step is to try to duplicate it in our lab. By now, an engineer from or Product Operational Support Team should have contacted you to follow up. Please collaborate with our POSC team. We need to replicate the exact set of conditions so we may reproduce this issue in our lab. Best, Juan Martinez Sony Electronics

May 5th, 2009, 04:05 PM	#14
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Thank you Juan, I'm glad to see you guys taking this seriously. Lenny

May 7th, 2009, 07:00 AM	#15
Mike Chandler Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Moab, UT Posts: 264	Juan : There have been a great many posts and threads concerning the use of the finder vs. Clip Browser and CRC. Using certain older macbooks in the field (non-Intel) does not allow for CB/CRC--is this unacceptable? Many people on the forum continue to copy the BPAV with the finder with no problem, while the counter-argument is that they've just been lucky. On the other hand, several people have reported lost or corrupted clips when using CB, but it's hard to judge whether there were other conditions operating, such as not using CRC while using CB or (as in Larry's case), interrupting recording. Would you mind taking a moment on the forum to educate us as to the technical differences between the two methods and explain why one is (or is not) preferable to the other? __________________ www.packcreekproductions.com EX3, Mac Pro, FCP