Convince me NOT to use the "Detail" PP Setting --or to use it!

Serena Steuart · April 16th, 2009, 11:59 PM

OK, I'll try again!
Really this cannot be answered by thinking about it and only through definitive tests. Broadly the question is whether it is better to sharpen at the 12 bit level of the DSP or leave it until post when working with 8 bit long GOP? And how is that changed working with 10 bit 2 frame GOP of Cineform NEO HD which has reconstructed the footage? And what are the effects of various NLE FX strings?
The perception of sharpness is strongly dependent on contrast, a low contrast image appearing less detailed even though of the same resolution. At the same time, as object contrast reduces so it is more difficult to resolve fine detail in the object (effect of MTF). Assuming that such detail is still contained in the recorded signal (even if not apparent) what is the best means for recovering it? Unsharp masking? Certainly a powerful tool for this purpose in astrophotography. Or is simple edge sharpening effective?
Since we're not concerned here with scientific imaging, any artefacts introduced through the DSP matter only when they become visible or effect other processes (such as chroma key). Having stuff pop into focus at the end of a pan, for example, is the reason I leave detail "off". Reviews have noted that detail -40 is about the same as detail "off", so there is plenty of margin for experiment.
My view is to go with whatever settings give you the image you want up on the screen, rather than try to discover the "right" answer. However if someone can propose a definitive test then it would be interesting to explore.

Serena Steuart · April 17th, 2009, 12:20 AM

repeated after failed to post

Markus Klatt · April 17th, 2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Klatt

When switching the details on, even with all parameters at default value/off, one immediatly can see that the all lights get some bright "1to2-pixel-white-glowing" at its contours. This seems to be a typical "Kantenaufsteilung" (I don't know the English word, its the sharpening effect at the edges/corners) which I really do not like/need.

Change the detail frequency to say -8 to -10. If that doesn't look good play with other negative numbers.
John

Thanks John,

But it does not help. At very sharp corners/edges like lights in dark rooms, especially eg. candles in wind glasses, you have this very obvious oversharpened dark "aura/corona". This will only be reduced at level -20/-30 but then everything is even more blurry as without setting details to on. Everything else in the room benefits with kindly better sharpness when details are set to on.

Mitchell Lewis · April 18th, 2009, 05:14 PM

Came across this detail "test" that some might find interesting.

Testing Letus Extreme on Sony EX1 Notes from the Field

Serena Steuart · April 18th, 2009, 06:39 PM

The test was useful for the intended purpose but no more than the subjective assessments people have been discussing. A quantitative test is needed encompassing all the factors mentioned above if the original question is to be answered.

Keith Moreau · April 21st, 2009, 07:56 AM

So Serena, what do you personally use when you shoot with the EX? Do you vary "Detail On" and "Detail Off" depending on the subject matter?

I did a shoot the other day with Alister's setting that included CINE 1 and Detail at -8, and I was quite pleased with the sharpness. I didn't scrutinize it but to me it was noticeably sharper and I didn't feel I lost any other aspects of the image, such as the filmic quality I was getting with the "Detail Off" setting. This was a very basic outdoor shoot with some high contrast sun with shadows.

Thanks all for everybody's input, if anybody has more, please feel free to contribute to this thread.

Serena Steuart · April 21st, 2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Moreau

So Serena, what do you personally use when you shoot with the EX? Do you vary "Detail On" and "Detail Off" depending on the subject matter?

I shoot with detail "off" and sharpen in post where I think that benefits. But your thread has raised interesting questions about where sharpening should be performed for optimal results (DSP or post). A good question for Adam Wilt (who also shoots with detail off).

April 16th, 2009, 11:59 PM	#16
Serena Steuart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Studio Alnitak, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 640 Images: 3	OK, I'll try again! Really this cannot be answered by thinking about it and only through definitive tests. Broadly the question is whether it is better to sharpen at the 12 bit level of the DSP or leave it until post when working with 8 bit long GOP? And how is that changed working with 10 bit 2 frame GOP of Cineform NEO HD which has reconstructed the footage? And what are the effects of various NLE FX strings? The perception of sharpness is strongly dependent on contrast, a low contrast image appearing less detailed even though of the same resolution. At the same time, as object contrast reduces so it is more difficult to resolve fine detail in the object (effect of MTF). Assuming that such detail is still contained in the recorded signal (even if not apparent) what is the best means for recovering it? Unsharp masking? Certainly a powerful tool for this purpose in astrophotography. Or is simple edge sharpening effective? Since we're not concerned here with scientific imaging, any artefacts introduced through the DSP matter only when they become visible or effect other processes (such as chroma key). Having stuff pop into focus at the end of a pan, for example, is the reason I leave detail "off". Reviews have noted that detail -40 is about the same as detail "off", so there is plenty of margin for experiment. My view is to go with whatever settings give you the image you want up on the screen, rather than try to discover the "right" answer. However if someone can propose a definitive test then it would be interesting to explore. Last edited by Serena Steuart; April 17th, 2009 at 08:25 PM.

April 18th, 2009, 05:14 PM	#19
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	Came across this detail "test" that some might find interesting. Testing Letus Extreme on Sony EX1 Notes from the Field __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

April 17th, 2009, 12:20 AM	#17
Serena Steuart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Studio Alnitak, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 640 Images: 3	repeated after failed to post

April 18th, 2009, 06:39 PM	#20
Serena Steuart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Studio Alnitak, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 640 Images: 3	The test was useful for the intended purpose but no more than the subjective assessments people have been discussing. A quantitative test is needed encompassing all the factors mentioned above if the original question is to be answered.

April 21st, 2009, 07:56 AM	#21
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	So Serena, what do you personally use when you shoot with the EX? Do you vary "Detail On" and "Detail Off" depending on the subject matter? I did a shoot the other day with Alister's setting that included CINE 1 and Detail at -8, and I was quite pleased with the sharpness. I didn't scrutinize it but to me it was noticeably sharper and I didn't feel I lost any other aspects of the image, such as the filmic quality I was getting with the "Detail Off" setting. This was a very basic outdoor shoot with some high contrast sun with shadows. Thanks all for everybody's input, if anybody has more, please feel free to contribute to this thread.