Use 60p or slow down my 30p footage? at DVinfo.net

Dave Morrison · March 23rd, 2009, 10:52 AM

I have a job coming up where I have to show a chemical as it passes through a transparent piece of pipe (approx. 4" diameter). The camera will be locked down for the entire 4-5 minute process....yeah, I know.....this will be boring footage but it's what the client needs. They want to be able to see the materials passing through the pipe and the automated clean-out process as it progresses to the end of the sequence. They would like to have a clock of some type (or a graphic element) showing the passage of time in the corner of the frame....no problem there, either.

What I'm unsure of is whether to shoot this in 30p OR whether to shoot it in 720 60p. They would love to be able to show parts of this process in slo-mo and then return to normal speed. This video would be edited down to a minute or less for "demo" purposes and/or for use on the web. I'll get MAYBE two shots at this process but NO more than that. I'll later shoot some B-roll of hands opening valves, gauges flickering, etc. but this material running through the pipe will be the trickiest part. Suggestions?

Mitchell Lewis · March 23rd, 2009, 10:59 AM

This is something I've been wondering about as well.

Maybe shoot the whole thing in 720 30p but with the S&Q Motion set to 60fps. Then when you bring it into Final Cut Pro (I'm assuming that's what you're using....maybe not), you will see the entire shoot in slow-motion. Then just use to Effects>Speed to speed it up back to normal?

The reason I say this is that I've heard if you shoot 720 60p and drop it into a 720 30p timeline, FCP will through away all the extra frames and make it 30p. It won't play slower.

Some day I need to do some testing with this....

Dave Morrison · March 23rd, 2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchell Lewis

This is something I've been wondering about as well.

Maybe shoot the whole thing in 720 30p but with the S&Q Motion set to 60fps. Then when you bring it into Final Cut Pro (I'm assuming that's what you're using....maybe not), you will see the entire shoot in slow-motion. Then just use to Effects>Speed to speed it up back to normal?

The reason I say this is that I've heard if you shoot 720 60p and drop it into a 720 30p timeline, FCP will through away all the extra frames and make it 30p. It won't play slower.

Some day I need to do some testing with this....

Hi Mitchell, and thanks. This shoot info came to me this morning and I have to shoot it tomorrow, so any help given today is greatly appreciated.

I think I'll probably shoot it all in 720 since I'll only be able to do 60p using that mode. You are right, too, about editing in FCP. That brings up a great question: What settings do I use for the Sequence? Then using Effects > Speed, I'd raise it 100% to bring the overcranked footage back to "normal" appearance, right?

Mitchell Lewis · March 23rd, 2009, 11:31 AM

I "think" when you bring in the 720 60p footage (not S&Q footage) it will play at normal speed. This is what creates the problem.

1) You could create a 720 60P sequence in FCP, but then your footage will play at normal speed.

2) You could create a 720 30P sequence in FCP, but when you drag in your 60P footage, FCP will throw away the extra frames. So that doesn't work.

3) You could shoot 720 30p with S&Q set to 60fps. Then it will import into FCP as slow motion (I think at 50% of the original speed). So you would then speed it up to twice the speed. Then slow down the footage at the points the client wants slow-motion.

I would do some tests before I commit to doing this. :)

Don't forget that shooting 720 30p with S&Q set to 60 fps will fill up your SxS cards much faster than normal. (maybe twice as fast?)

Don Greening · March 23rd, 2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchell Lewis

Don't forget that shooting 720 30p with S&Q set to 60 fps will fill up your SxS cards much faster than normal. (maybe twice as fast?)

Yup. Twice as fast. On an 8 Gig card shooting 720p 30 with S&Q motion active and set to record 60 frames per sec. the card will will be full in 14 minutes.

- Don

Dave Morrison · March 23rd, 2009, 11:58 AM

Mitchell, Option #3 sounds like what I had in mind originally. I'll try to test this afternoon because it doesn't look like I'll have any chances for error tomorrow. Thanks too, Don. Sounds like my 4-5 min. sequence should fit nicely onto my 8 gig cards. Wish me luck, guys.

Craig Seeman · March 23rd, 2009, 12:12 PM

You might "risk" shooting 720p24/60. That'll give you 2.5 times slow down. You can shoot any live action at 720p24 but make sure you're camera motion (pans) are slow to avoid judder. Then edit in 720p24 timeline.

When you're shooting S&Q you're not recording any audio so you may want to do a "nat sound" grab if there's any noise worth using.

Is there a reason to use 30p over 24p?

For web 24p will work fine. For Apple TV 720p24 is ideal. 24p is good for Blu-ray as well.

Dave Morrison · March 23rd, 2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

You might "risk" shooting 720p24/60. That'll give you 2.5 times slow down. You can shoot any live action at 720p24 but make sure you're camera motion (pans) are slow to avoid judder. Then edit in 720p24 timeline.

Locked down camera, so no problem with pans.

Quote:

When you're shooting S&Q you're not recording any audio so you may want to do a "nat sound" grab if there's any noise worth using.

No audio necessary on this. Might be a VO laid in later.

Quote:

Is there a reason to use 30p over 24p?

Is there any reason to use 24p over 30p?

Quote:

For web 24p will work fine. For Apple TV 720p24 is ideal. 24p is good for Blu-ray as well.

Thanks for that.

Don Greening · March 23rd, 2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Morrison

Is there any reason to use 24p over 30p?

Yes. If, for example you were to use 720p 24 with an over cranked frame rate of 60 the resulting footage would be even slower than if you had shot at 30p (with the same over cranked frame rate).

It's just an option. When I'm shooting something or buying a car I always like to know about the options.

- Don

Dave Morrison · March 23rd, 2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Greening

Yes. If, for example you were to use 720p 24 with an over cranked frame rate of 60 the resulting footage would be even slower than if you had shot at 30p (with the same over cranked frame rate).

It's just an option. When I'm shooting something or buying a car I always like to know about the options.

- Don

Excellent points, Don.....and thanks.
dave

Don Greening · March 23rd, 2009, 12:59 PM

You're welcome. It should be noted that Craig said essentially the same thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

You might "risk" shooting 720p24/60. That'll give you 2.5 times slow down.

- Don

Craig Seeman · March 23rd, 2009, 01:16 PM

I noted the advantages of 24p over 30p above. They're especially advantageous if this is not for broadcast which would have to be 720p60 or 1080i60.

720p30 will not work on Apple TV or blu-ray whereas 24p will. For corporate delivery you're giving your client more display options without the headache of a frame rate conversion and, as Don also clarified, you get slower slow mo too.

March 23rd, 2009, 10:52 AM	#1
Dave Morrison Major Player Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 762	Use 60p or slow down my 30p footage? I have a job coming up where I have to show a chemical as it passes through a transparent piece of pipe (approx. 4" diameter). The camera will be locked down for the entire 4-5 minute process....yeah, I know.....this will be boring footage but it's what the client needs. They want to be able to see the materials passing through the pipe and the automated clean-out process as it progresses to the end of the sequence. They would like to have a clock of some type (or a graphic element) showing the passage of time in the corner of the frame....no problem there, either. What I'm unsure of is whether to shoot this in 30p OR whether to shoot it in 720 60p. They would love to be able to show parts of this process in slo-mo and then return to normal speed. This video would be edited down to a minute or less for "demo" purposes and/or for use on the web. I'll get MAYBE two shots at this process but NO more than that. I'll later shoot some B-roll of hands opening valves, gauges flickering, etc. but this material running through the pipe will be the trickiest part. Suggestions? __________________ EX1, Nikon D750 http://www.morrisonphotographics.com http://www.heritagefilm.com

March 23rd, 2009, 10:59 AM	#2
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	This is something I've been wondering about as well. Maybe shoot the whole thing in 720 30p but with the S&Q Motion set to 60fps. Then when you bring it into Final Cut Pro (I'm assuming that's what you're using....maybe not), you will see the entire shoot in slow-motion. Then just use to Effects>Speed to speed it up back to normal? The reason I say this is that I've heard if you shoot 720 60p and drop it into a 720 30p timeline, FCP will through away all the extra frames and make it 30p. It won't play slower. Some day I need to do some testing with this.... __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

March 23rd, 2009, 11:31 AM	#4
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	I "think" when you bring in the 720 60p footage (not S&Q footage) it will play at normal speed. This is what creates the problem. 1) You could create a 720 60P sequence in FCP, but then your footage will play at normal speed. 2) You could create a 720 30P sequence in FCP, but when you drag in your 60P footage, FCP will throw away the extra frames. So that doesn't work. 3) You could shoot 720 30p with S&Q set to 60fps. Then it will import into FCP as slow motion (I think at 50% of the original speed). So you would then speed it up to twice the speed. Then slow down the footage at the points the client wants slow-motion. I would do some tests before I commit to doing this. :) Don't forget that shooting 720 30p with S&Q set to 60 fps will fill up your SxS cards much faster than normal. (maybe twice as fast?) __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

March 23rd, 2009, 11:58 AM	#6
Dave Morrison Major Player Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 762	Mitchell, Option #3 sounds like what I had in mind originally. I'll try to test this afternoon because it doesn't look like I'll have any chances for error tomorrow. Thanks too, Don. Sounds like my 4-5 min. sequence should fit nicely onto my 8 gig cards. Wish me luck, guys. __________________ EX1, Nikon D750 http://www.morrisonphotographics.com http://www.heritagefilm.com

March 23rd, 2009, 12:12 PM	#7
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	You might "risk" shooting 720p24/60. That'll give you 2.5 times slow down. You can shoot any live action at 720p24 but make sure you're camera motion (pans) are slow to avoid judder. Then edit in 720p24 timeline. When you're shooting S&Q you're not recording any audio so you may want to do a "nat sound" grab if there's any noise worth using. Is there a reason to use 30p over 24p? For web 24p will work fine. For Apple TV 720p24 is ideal. 24p is good for Blu-ray as well.

March 23rd, 2009, 01:16 PM	#12
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	I noted the advantages of 24p over 30p above. They're especially advantageous if this is not for broadcast which would have to be 720p60 or 1080i60. 720p30 will not work on Apple TV or blu-ray whereas 24p will. For corporate delivery you're giving your client more display options without the headache of a frame rate conversion and, as Don also clarified, you get slower slow mo too.