Left to Right Pan

Shawn Dooling · February 21st, 2009, 09:54 PM

Obviously I am New to the EX3 and HD Video. I am not sure this is related to those but i'll ask anyway.

I recorded some Video on my EX3. Basic interior shots....all looked fine. But when i panned left to Right and played the footage back the video had a jitter/slight freeze to it. All Factory Settings. I didn't change anything

Has anyone had this happen, and why would this be happening?

i was playing it back through my mac in the Clip Browser Software.

David Issko · February 21st, 2009, 10:24 PM

What did you have your camera set to in terms of progressive or interlaced.
If you set it to 24p (in NTSC area), you will get the horrid jitter on pans and tilts. 25p in PAL area will exhibit the same jitter but for me, I found that with Picture Profiles Detail setting off in this mode does help a little to ease this.

Is this what you are asking about?

Shawn Dooling · February 21st, 2009, 11:33 PM

I'm in 1080/60i - NTSC

Vincent Oliver · February 22nd, 2009, 02:35 AM

Try playing your footage back in the FCP timeline. ClipBrowser is great for quick previews, but clips can look shaky, you may also see a jelly like ripple through some of your footage, again this will not be visible in FCP, or a rendered timeline.

Steve Connor · February 22nd, 2009, 04:10 AM

Also how fast was the pan? If you pan too fast in 24 or 25p you get jitter on any camera (in case you didn't know!)

Steve Phillipps · February 22nd, 2009, 04:29 AM

Do a little search and you'll find loooonnnggg chats about this. Big divide on whether or not it even exists, but I've seen it every time I use an EX. Do a search.
And don't be sidetracked by the settings and people talking about progressive footage having jitters, I shoot all progressive on loads of cameras and never see it. And as you say you were shooting interlaced anyway - I also saw it on 50i with a slow pan along my mantlepiece.
I'm not getting involved in this one this time, I get too much abuse!
Steve

Bob Grant · February 22nd, 2009, 04:43 AM

Just to be clear, you shot in 60i.
Right to left pans are OK, left to right pans have jitter?

Thinking outside the square, it could be the head on your tripod. Remember to warm the head up.

Steve Connor · February 22nd, 2009, 05:09 AM

Steve, the fact that you say you saw it in 50i doesn't exactly help your case at all, no wonder you get abuse!

Most of the loooong chats involve your view that there is a problem when almost everyone else doesn't see it. I'm editing EX footage every single day and I don't see it.

David Issko · February 22nd, 2009, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

And don't be sidetracked by the settings and people talking about progressive footage having jitters, I shoot all progressive on loads of cameras and never see it. Steve

What are your settings for 25p on your EX without jitter? It's almost non existent on 30p but certainly on 24 & 25p on my EX3 camera as well as my supplier's demo EX3.

Alister Chapman · February 22nd, 2009, 05:47 AM

Steve, you keep banging on about the jitter you saw on one shot, yet despite many requests by others to see this footage so we can see what you are talking about you cannot either be bothered or don't want to post a sample. You have admitted to using far from perfect monitoring for evaluating the footage and you are making damaging statements about the way the EX handles motion without actually being able to substantiate them. Are you surprised that people are getting wound up?

I have posted side by side comparisons of the EX and other cameras that show no difference in the way the EX cameras and other progressive cameras portray motion, yet you still won't accept that the EX is capable of producing excellent results. If I were you I would sell your 700, buy a Varicam (as nothing else will do according to you) and go off and make wonderful wildlife films and be done with it.

There is a whole universe of wonderful well made HD programmes beyond the BBC NHU.

Matt San · February 22nd, 2009, 05:59 AM

in response to the ORIGINAL Question - all my interlaced video looks jittery when played back the clip browser software but when editing etc its not there so figured it IS the software from sony that is causing that NOT the camera

play it direct from the camera into yr plasma and be rest assured its not there!

Piotr Wozniacki · February 22nd, 2009, 06:08 AM

My 3-years experience with 25p HD video from Sony compact cameras (first the V1E, now the EX1) prove beyond any doubt that - provided some basic rules for camera/object motion are followed - any "judder", "jitter" or "jerkiness" problems that people tend to complain about are display-related (either poor hardware, or even more often, the software used).

Some of you may remember the V1E's 25p line-twitter saga; it also never existed in the footage itself but was created somewhere in the display hw/sw chain. Now similar "problems" are seen with the EX progressive footage being "jerky" - I can assure you it's not more so than a traditional film can be. Each film's frame is displayed twice in the projector; get a HD plasma capable of displaying each of your 25p HD video frame several times as well (with e.g. 100 Hz refresh rate for 25p; for 24p it would be 96 or 120 Hz), follow the basic rules for motion, and - above all - do NOT use crappy software players, and you will find that the EX's 24(5)p is OK motionwise (though some may prefer more temporal resolution - a matter of personal taste, of course).

George Angeludis · February 22nd, 2009, 06:25 AM

In any case it would be good Steve, if you just upload a small raw sample of some secs for us who are considering this camera to see what is happening. As I was (and I am in Avid now forums for MC) many years in Pinnacle's forums, I was defending strongly my opinion as for Liquid being the best NLE among every other out there.Arguing with some people about that. Some times too harsh is the truth.I found after 6 or so years that there is nothing good comes out of this.Just relax and upload a sample (of raw footage if you can) so every other can benefit.

With respect.

Bob Grant · February 22nd, 2009, 06:26 AM

This technical paper from the BBC may have some bearing on the topic under discussion:

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/w...les/WHP053.pdf

Pages 12 onwards discuss the issue of detail enhancement and how it can introduce the appearance of negative motion and judder.

Steve Phillipps · February 22nd, 2009, 07:34 AM

I don't keep coming back to it myself, only responding when other people comment on it, it really doesn't matter to me as I don't use it, just reporting what I've seen, but always advise people to do their testing (obviously), don't expect any sensible person to buy or use anything on the strength of what they hear on a forum.

I don't own an EX3 but have access to one as I've said, and I will be doing some more tests with it and taking the footage into a post house to have a proper look at, as it would be a useful bit of kit in a lot of circumstances as long as it's OK with fast moving action.

And it's not just one shot where I noticed an issue, it was every time I tested it.

Alister, I tried exporting a clip on FCP to an MPEG4 so it wouldn't be huge but it looked awful, very jerky because of the compression or the power of my PC I don't know but no-one could judge anything from that. I'm not an editor so it's not as easy for me to do it as some of you guys who are used to it - it's not that I can't be bothered. I also did assume that playing from the camera via component out to an HD plasma would give a true image of what's on the card, but again not my area of expertise.

I don't know why I'd need to sell my 700 and buy a Varicam, it's the EX I'm not sure about the 700 is OK. And I've never said the Varicam is perfect, far from it, being 720 is a big issue in my book. I don't think there's anything ideal for the wildlife business just now, and I know my views are shared by many other freelance wildlife cameramen, we just have to make do with what is available and deal with its limitations. Be nice if some company had the resources to make a fully wildlife-orientated camera.

Steve

February 21st, 2009, 09:54 PM	#1
Shawn Dooling Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: St. John's, NL Canada Posts: 79	Left to Right Pan - Video jitter Obviously I am New to the EX3 and HD Video. I am not sure this is related to those but i'll ask anyway. I recorded some Video on my EX3. Basic interior shots....all looked fine. But when i panned left to Right and played the footage back the video had a jitter/slight freeze to it. All Factory Settings. I didn't change anything Has anyone had this happen, and why would this be happening? i was playing it back through my mac in the Clip Browser Software.

February 21st, 2009, 10:24 PM	#2
David Issko Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 393	What did you have your camera set to in terms of progressive or interlaced. If you set it to 24p (in NTSC area), you will get the horrid jitter on pans and tilts. 25p in PAL area will exhibit the same jitter but for me, I found that with Picture Profiles Detail setting off in this mode does help a little to ease this. Is this what you are asking about? __________________ David Issko Edit 1 Video Productions

February 22nd, 2009, 02:35 AM	#4
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Try playing your footage back in the FCP timeline. ClipBrowser is great for quick previews, but clips can look shaky, you may also see a jelly like ripple through some of your footage, again this will not be visible in FCP, or a rendered timeline. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

February 22nd, 2009, 05:47 AM	#10
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Steve, you keep banging on about the jitter you saw on one shot, yet despite many requests by others to see this footage so we can see what you are talking about you cannot either be bothered or don't want to post a sample. You have admitted to using far from perfect monitoring for evaluating the footage and you are making damaging statements about the way the EX handles motion without actually being able to substantiate them. Are you surprised that people are getting wound up? I have posted side by side comparisons of the EX and other cameras that show no difference in the way the EX cameras and other progressive cameras portray motion, yet you still won't accept that the EX is capable of producing excellent results. If I were you I would sell your 700, buy a Varicam (as nothing else will do according to you) and go off and make wonderful wildlife films and be done with it. There is a whole universe of wonderful well made HD programmes beyond the BBC NHU. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

February 22nd, 2009, 06:08 AM	#12
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	My 3-years experience with 25p HD video from Sony compact cameras (first the V1E, now the EX1) prove beyond any doubt that - provided some basic rules for camera/object motion are followed - any "judder", "jitter" or "jerkiness" problems that people tend to complain about are display-related (either poor hardware, or even more often, the software used). Some of you may remember the V1E's 25p line-twitter saga; it also never existed in the footage itself but was created somewhere in the display hw/sw chain. Now similar "problems" are seen with the EX progressive footage being "jerky" - I can assure you it's not more so than a traditional film can be. Each film's frame is displayed twice in the projector; get a HD plasma capable of displaying each of your 25p HD video frame several times as well (with e.g. 100 Hz refresh rate for 25p; for 24p it would be 96 or 120 Hz), follow the basic rules for motion, and - above all - do NOT use crappy software players, and you will find that the EX's 24(5)p is OK motionwise (though some may prefer more temporal resolution - a matter of personal taste, of course). __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; February 22nd, 2009 at 09:05 AM.

February 21st, 2009, 11:33 PM	#3
Shawn Dooling Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: St. John's, NL Canada Posts: 79	I'm in 1080/60i - NTSC

February 22nd, 2009, 04:10 AM	#5
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	Also how fast was the pan? If you pan too fast in 24 or 25p you get jitter on any camera (in case you didn't know!)

February 22nd, 2009, 04:29 AM	#6
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Do a little search and you'll find loooonnnggg chats about this. Big divide on whether or not it even exists, but I've seen it every time I use an EX. Do a search. And don't be sidetracked by the settings and people talking about progressive footage having jitters, I shoot all progressive on loads of cameras and never see it. And as you say you were shooting interlaced anyway - I also saw it on 50i with a slow pan along my mantlepiece. I'm not getting involved in this one this time, I get too much abuse! Steve

February 22nd, 2009, 04:43 AM	#7
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Just to be clear, you shot in 60i. Right to left pans are OK, left to right pans have jitter? Thinking outside the square, it could be the head on your tripod. Remember to warm the head up.

February 22nd, 2009, 05:09 AM	#8
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	Steve, the fact that you say you saw it in 50i doesn't exactly help your case at all, no wonder you get abuse! Most of the loooong chats involve your view that there is a problem when almost everyone else doesn't see it. I'm editing EX footage every single day and I don't see it.

February 22nd, 2009, 05:59 AM	#11
Matt San Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Wales UK Posts: 121	in response to the ORIGINAL Question - all my interlaced video looks jittery when played back the clip browser software but when editing etc its not there so figured it IS the software from sony that is causing that NOT the camera play it direct from the camera into yr plasma and be rest assured its not there!

February 22nd, 2009, 06:25 AM	#13
George Angeludis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Thessaloniki, Greece. Posts: 179	In any case it would be good Steve, if you just upload a small raw sample of some secs for us who are considering this camera to see what is happening. As I was (and I am in Avid now forums for MC) many years in Pinnacle's forums, I was defending strongly my opinion as for Liquid being the best NLE among every other out there.Arguing with some people about that. Some times too harsh is the truth.I found after 6 or so years that there is nothing good comes out of this.Just relax and upload a sample (of raw footage if you can) so every other can benefit. With respect. __________________ My Films My Works FB

February 22nd, 2009, 06:26 AM	#14
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	This technical paper from the BBC may have some bearing on the topic under discussion: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/w...les/WHP053.pdf Pages 12 onwards discuss the issue of detail enhancement and how it can introduce the appearance of negative motion and judder.

February 22nd, 2009, 07:34 AM	#15
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	I don't keep coming back to it myself, only responding when other people comment on it, it really doesn't matter to me as I don't use it, just reporting what I've seen, but always advise people to do their testing (obviously), don't expect any sensible person to buy or use anything on the strength of what they hear on a forum. I don't own an EX3 but have access to one as I've said, and I will be doing some more tests with it and taking the footage into a post house to have a proper look at, as it would be a useful bit of kit in a lot of circumstances as long as it's OK with fast moving action. And it's not just one shot where I noticed an issue, it was every time I tested it. Alister, I tried exporting a clip on FCP to an MPEG4 so it wouldn't be huge but it looked awful, very jerky because of the compression or the power of my PC I don't know but no-one could judge anything from that. I'm not an editor so it's not as easy for me to do it as some of you guys who are used to it - it's not that I can't be bothered. I also did assume that playing from the camera via component out to an HD plasma would give a true image of what's on the card, but again not my area of expertise. I don't know why I'd need to sell my 700 and buy a Varicam, it's the EX I'm not sure about the 700 is OK. And I've never said the Varicam is perfect, far from it, being 720 is a big issue in my book. I don't think there's anything ideal for the wildlife business just now, and I know my views are shared by many other freelance wildlife cameramen, we just have to make do with what is available and deal with its limitations. Be nice if some company had the resources to make a fully wildlife-orientated camera. Steve