Rolling shutter on EX? - Panic not.

[Steve Phillipps]

That makes it sounds like a close-run decision though David, which it quite clearly isn't. For these types of projects the EX3 wouldn't even be talked about let alone considered as a serious possibility, no mre than a 2/3" Digibeta would be.
Steve

[Tim Polster]

Maybe some perspective is needed here.

Yes, Steve has used the EX cameras, he has stated that many times.

And I agree with what he is saying about "high end" cameras and television production. It may sound elitist, but why would BBC, Discovery etc... favor an $8,000 camera over a $40,000+ camera if they have the resources or requirements?

The EX3 is a nice camera, but it is a 1/2" chip image quality bang for your buck camera.

I never understand why people try to defend their camera like they have discovered the great image quality and other people need to get with the program.

These large broadcasters use the more expensive cameras for their important projects because they produce better images with a larger amount of lens choices.

It is great the "lower end" of products in the camera world is coming up to meet the high end in terms of affordable image quality, but that does not mean that all are viewed as equal.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

That makes it sounds like a close-run decision though David, which it quite clearly isn't. For these types of projects the EX3 wouldn't even be talked about let alone considered as a serious possibility, no mre than a 2/3" Digibeta would be.

I think you're taking me the wrong way. For such a project I'm fully AGREEING with you that a 2700 would be far more acceptable than an EX3 - but for lots of other reasons than rolling shutters.

If the 2700 had a rolling shutter, and the EX3 didn't, I'm saying the choice for the work you refer to would almost certainly still be for the 2700.

[Mike Barber]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

What I mean is all the cameras that are considered top-grade broadcast and cinematic cameras - so Sony F900, F23, F35, Panavision Genesis, Panasonic HPX 2700, 3000, 3700. There are specialist cameras like Phantoms with CMOS, and fringe ones like the RED, but the first ones are the mainstream high end cameras from high-end docs to Hollywood and there ain't a CMOS in sight.

REDs are, as you say, on the fringe but I would say that is because they have only been out for about about 16 or so months! FWIW, I was at the Montreal premiere of Soderberg's epic "Che" (the "Roadshow Edition." No previews, commercials or even credits... just 4h18m with a short intermission... it was awesome) yesterday which was shot exclussivly with the RED with a small exception for some footage shot with a super 16mm Aaton. It was beautiful.

[Steve Phillipps]

I agree with Tim's post entirely.
If the EX cameras are not "top-of-the-line" cameras then why wouldn't they be considered? They're cheaper and much more compact - you'd have to be stupid not to use them if the image quality were the same as the Varicam/750 et al, so it stands to reason that they're not.
That's why I asked out of genuine interest for examples of high end docs on Nat Geo etc. that have been shot on the EX cameras, because I don't know of any - but that's not to say there haven't been any. All I know is that of the high end and even mid-high end wildlife progs I've known of or been involved in none have used the EX cameras. So again, examples would be interesting to me if you have any.
Steve

[Steve Phillipps]

I don't think the EX are a bad choice for production at all, just for high end docs - that's what I said.

I actually really like the EX3, it's a really nice camera to work with, viewfinder is nice, change from 720 variable speeds to 1080 is easy, few grumbles like the little fiddly switches are a pain, but on the whole it's really nice - and small, light, the batteries are tiny and last forever.

For your information I look at all the forums, don't think there's any rule that you can't view a forum unless you use that gear is there?
I just asked for eamples of programmes on EX cameras as you seemed so sure there was a lot of high end stuff out there I assumed you must be thinking of specific projects, or is it just conjecture?
Steve

[Brian Luce]

I'm not sure how revelatory it is to say the EX isn't as good as a $90,000 camera. Varicams aren't taken seriously by Hollywood. Where we going with this?

[Simon Wyndham]

I don't care what camera a production uses. If they tell me to operate it, I will. All I need to know is that it has a lens and a record button.

[Steve Phillipps]

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

I'm not sure how revelatory it is to say the EX isn't as good as a $90,000 camera. Varicams aren't taken seriously by Hollywood. Where we going with this?

Exactly, that's why I was surprised to be told that the EX cameras were used on high end docs for Nat Geo etc., it was new to me. But I'm happy to be proved wrong if someone can let me know something high end that was shot with them, I genuinely am.
It's true I don't get to se much Nat Geo, and the only Discovery stuff I see is the copros with BBC. Most recent high end wildlife stuff I've seen has all been Varicam: Planet Earth, Ganges, Wild China, Nature's Great Events, Life in Cold Blood, the list goes on. Same goes for all high end stuff in production; Frozen Planet, Life, plus various series on Madagascar, the Great Rift and others.
I can only report what I know. I've also seen Bob Landis and Neil Retig doing stuff for PBS Nature on HDW730 and Varicam respectively, and Derek Joubert doing a Nat Geo leopard prog on HPX3000.
Steve

[Bob Grant]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

I agree with Tim's post entirely.
If the EX cameras are not "top-of-the-line" cameras then why wouldn't they be considered? They're cheaper and much more compact - you'd have to be stupid not to use them if the image quality were the same as the Varicam/750 et al, so it stands to reason that they're not.
That's why I asked out of genuine interest for examples of high end docs on Nat Geo etc. that have been shot on the EX cameras, because I don't know of any - but that's not to say there haven't been any. All I know is that of the high end and even mid-high end wildlife progs I've known of or been involved in none have used the EX cameras. So again, examples would be interesting to me if you have any.
Steve

I no longer have the link to the video or recall the names however the gent who shot Bugs 3D is shooting his next 3D feature with two EX3s and the P+S Techniks 3D mirror rig. As he shows in the video one man can lift the entire rig. The rig his previous 3D movie was shot with needed 4 guys to lift it.
Many wildlife docos are shot on 1/2" cameras, generally tape or optical disk cameras though. Reason is simple enough. The camera and lenses are ever so much lighter. March of the Penguins was shot on S16 because only S16 would give them 1,000' loads, changing mags in a blizzard was not an option.
Slumdog Millionaire was largely shot with the SI-2K. Crucial scenes arguably could not have been shot with any other camera. Being a single chip S16 sized CMOS sensor it will have as much skew as the EXs and possibly less resolution but definately better latitude. It'll very easily take expensive and very fast glass. It's also very small.

What all the above shows is serious people involved in serious production choose cameras that are the best fit to the required performance envelope. No one thinks "Oh, we've got this camera, what sort of movie can I make with it?" It's equally silly to think just because someone shot something with camera XYZ it's good enough or not for anything. If the production is costing $1M / day of course they're going to go for the best cameras and lenses money can buy but even then optics are chosen for their look, same applies to film stock. Same production might also shoot some footage with an EX as a crash cam, that proves nothing other than their DP knew what he was doing.

I could add that certain scenes of a local episodic TV series that has global distro in HD were shot with one of our HC7s. That in no way implies that a HC7 is good enough for HD drama. It was in an underwater housing, the shots were in mirky water.

[Steve Connor]

I'll be controversial here but I'm actually looking forward to seeing EX footage in wildlife films. I know the BBC use Varicam but I have to say I wish they wouldn't, it just not as punchy as a proper 1080 camera. "Planet Earth" is a great Ad for HD, the most stunning parts of it were the aerials, I believe these were actually shot 1080.

My wife can actually tell the difference now and that's saying something, she's very disappointed with the new BBC series "Natures Great Events" which looks like it was mostly Varicam.

As has been said Discovery HD have accepted the EX format for 100% Silver Production which presumably means they would be happy with an entire wildlife series to be shot in it.

[Simon Denny]

I am selling my EX1 as the rolling shutter is way to much. Shot another wedding yesterday(day and night shoot) and was surrounded by photographers and flashes going off, man i'm over it. At first I thought I could handle this shutter thing but that's it.

I love this camera and it's image but the rolling shuuter is/has forced me to sell.

Regards
Simon

[Steve Phillipps]

Originally Posted by Steve Connor

I'll be controversial here but I'm actually looking forward to seeing EX footage in wildlife films. I know the BBC use Varicam but I have to say I wish they wouldn't, it just not as punchy as a proper 1080 camera. "Planet Earth" is a great Ad for HD, the most stunning parts of it were the aerials, I believe these were actually shot 1080.

My wife can actually tell the difference now and that's saying something, she's very disappointed with the new BBC series "Natures Great Events" which looks like it was mostly Varicam.

As has been said Discovery HD have accepted the EX format for 100% Silver Production which presumably means they would be happy with an entire wildlife series to be shot in it.

I can tell the difference too now I have a Bluray player and a big screen. Yes the aerials were shot 1080 HDCam as were the underwater shots. Wildlife progs can't really use 1080 cams as you always need slomo, even the Varicam at 60fps is not really enough.
But as for stopping using the Varicam and using EX3s I wouldn't get your hopes up, it's not even an option that's ever discussed excpet for really special circumstances.
As for the Discovery situation I'm pretty sure each project would be discussed on a case by case basis and if it were a 6x1 hour, blue chip, high end wildlife doc budgeted at arounf $1 million per programme I'm pretty sure they'd not consider EX3 (I might be wrong, it's just conjecture), and it wouldn't be just because they could afford a more expensive camera.
Steve

[Steve Connor]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

As for the Discovery situation I'm pretty sure each project would be discussed on a case by case basis and if it were a 6x1 hour, blue chip, high end wildlife doc budgeted at arounf $1 million per programme I'm pretty sure they'd not consider EX3 (I might be wrong, it's just conjecture), and it wouldn't be just because they could afford a more expensive camera.
Steve

Well of course at that budget they should use RED! - I'm not saying the EX series are the best cameras out there, however the days of budgets like that are disappearing VERY fast, perhaps not in the license fee funded world of the Beeb, but in commercial television times are hard and it is likely to get a lot harder and that's where cameras like the EX are likely to play a part. Not all wildlife Programming is done on BBC budgets.

[Steve Phillipps]

There's no doubt at all that the EX and other budget cameras have a big place in broadcast, but it was the high end programmes (ie well budgeted) that we were debating.
Budgets are getting tighter at the Beeb too, and in fact most of their big budget stuff is copro - often with Discovery or NHK or WGBH and other commercial bodies. They are also doing cinema-bound progs with Disney Nature, including one in Africa with an F23/SR + Phantom HD duo.

I still would be very very interested if someone could tell me of a blue chip wildlife prog that was shot with the EX, not to make any sort of point, I'd just be genuinely interested to see what it looks like. Anybody?

Steve