I miss the 1/30th shutter setting at DVinfo.net

Craig Terott · February 19th, 2009, 07:06 AM

Overall, the EX is better in low light but I can't help but wonder about the low light performance I would see if I was able to set the shutter at 1/30th (in 60i mode), as I used to do this often with my Z1.

Is there something I'm missing? Why wouldn't Sony make a 1/2 frame rate setting available on this cam like most other pro cams?

(The specialized slow shutter settings are not very usable with motion in the shot)

Craig Seeman · February 19th, 2009, 07:58 AM

Shutter OFF is at frame rate 1/30 for 30fps. 1/24 for 1/24fps. 1/25 for 25fps.

Craig Terott · February 19th, 2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Shutter OFF is at frame rate 1/30 for 30fps. 1/24 for 1/24fps. 1/25 for 25fps.

ok time for a dumb question. How does one turn off the shutter on the EX1?

I see only an option for 1/60th and beyond - no OFF.

Craig Seeman · February 19th, 2009, 08:25 AM

There's a physical switch underneath the lens.

Mitchell Lewis · February 19th, 2009, 08:33 AM

Ha! So I wasn't the only one to ask this "dumb" question. (I asked the same question about a month ago) :)

Bill Ravens · February 19th, 2009, 09:02 AM

the user manual is YOUR friend

Craig Terott · February 19th, 2009, 10:23 AM

The manual is not my friend (a little sarcasm).

Back to my original thought. I miss the 1/30 shutter speed in 60i.

The EX1 can't do it.

Please tell me I'm wrong.

Craig Seeman · February 19th, 2009, 10:46 AM

I think you better reread these posts and the manual. Apparently you're not understanding.
There are only so many ways people can say it can and it's in the manual.

Craig Terott · February 19th, 2009, 11:02 AM

Craig,

I don't think you are picking up what I'm throwing down to you.

In 30p with shutter off I am getting 1/30 shutter. No problem. But...

In 60i with shutter off the shutter speed is 1/60.

Back to my original point. I miss 1/30 in 60i. The EX1 won't do it.

Omar Idris · February 19th, 2009, 11:17 AM

Craig
wouldn't 1/30th in 60Hz be the same as SLS mode accumulating 2 frames? Does the 1/30th setting on your Z1 give you 60 distinct images per second or 30? If it's 30 then I think SLS: 2 is your answer.

Craig Seeman · February 19th, 2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Terott

Craig,

I don't think you are picking up what I'm throwing down to you.

In 30p with shutter off I am getting 1/30 shutter. No problem. But...

In 60i with shutter off the shutter speed is 1/60.

Back to my original point. I miss 1/30 in 60i. The EX1 won't do it.

Read the posts again. SHUTTER OFF IS 1/30 AT 60i (which is 30fps).

SHUTTER OFF IS FRAME RATE.

Craig Seeman · February 19th, 2009, 11:39 AM

I think people didn't take their video math 101.

30p and 60i are BOTH 30fps. (actually 29.97fps or 59.94i). Shutter off is 1/30 whether 30 progressive frames or 30 interlace frames.

SLS2 is TWO FRAME ACCUMULATION. At 30fps that's 1/15.

Interlaced video has TWO FIELDS FOR EACH FRAME.

Omar Idris · February 19th, 2009, 12:14 PM

Craig Seeman,
I don't think shouting is called for. It doesn't get your point across any clearer and just gives a bad impression. Also, let's not make assumptions about people, we are all here to learn in one way or another.
As for video math, with all due respect, 30Hz and 60Hz are not the same thing. Besides the i and p nomenclature has nothing to do with frame-rates rather frame-formats. There is no such thing as an interlaced frame-rate.
Since at 60Hz (which we all know is actually 60,000/1001) the sensors gather light for half the time they do at 30Hz, the shutter speed is effectively doubled. So 1/15th at 30Hz would give 1/30th at 60Hz.
I don't own a Z1, that's why in my post I asked how many distinct frames Craig Terrot got with his Z1 at 60Hz with a 1/30th shutter.

Craig Seeman · February 19th, 2009, 01:13 PM

Omar, Sorry you feel I'm shouting. The concepts are simple. The OP has a Z1 I'm sure (or at least suspect) they are familiar with its functions and trying to compare to EX series.

i60 is 30 frames per second (59.97 fields per second).
p30 is also 30 frames per second.

Your use of Hz is misleading.
i60 is 60 fields per second which is 30 frames per second.

1/15 is a measure in seconds. 1/15 of a second is just that. It has nothing to do with Hz.

A frame on the other hand can be of various durations.
i60 is 30 frames per second
p60 is 60 frames per second
This is why Hz is misleading.

The OP asked about i60 which is the same frame rate as p30. BOTH are 30 frames a second.

Shutter speed doesn't "double." It's exactly what you set it to when using fractional time (as opposed to angle). It's impact on light gathering on the sensor is DIFFERENT at different field or frame rates.

Shutter off at either i60 or p30 is 1/30 of a second on the EX1.
Shutter off on the EX1 equals duration of a FRAME.
At i60 it is 1/30
at p30 it is 1/30
Both i60 and p30 are the same frame rate.

Craig Terott · February 19th, 2009, 01:25 PM

I'm sorry I can't answer your question about distinct frames Omar unless I unearth some of my archived Z1 video (I no longer own the Z1).

But I can clearly explain how the two cameras behave very differently:

[Z1U in 60i ,in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Now, I change the shutter from 1/60 to 1/30 and the image gets noticably brighter.

[EX1 in 60i, in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Turn shutter switch OFF and the image is exactly the same. No brightness increase.

My observation demonstrates that there is no change, in 60i, between 1/60 and shutter OFF.

February 19th, 2009, 07:06 AM	#1
Craig Terott Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 691	I miss the 1/30th shutter setting Overall, the EX is better in low light but I can't help but wonder about the low light performance I would see if I was able to set the shutter at 1/30th (in 60i mode), as I used to do this often with my Z1. Is there something I'm missing? Why wouldn't Sony make a 1/2 frame rate setting available on this cam like most other pro cams? (The specialized slow shutter settings are not very usable with motion in the shot)

February 19th, 2009, 08:33 AM	#5
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	Ha! So I wasn't the only one to ask this "dumb" question. (I asked the same question about a month ago) :) __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

February 19th, 2009, 07:58 AM	#2
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Shutter OFF is at frame rate 1/30 for 30fps. 1/24 for 1/24fps. 1/25 for 25fps.

February 19th, 2009, 08:25 AM	#4
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	There's a physical switch underneath the lens.

February 19th, 2009, 09:02 AM	#6
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	the user manual is YOUR friend

February 19th, 2009, 10:23 AM	#7
Craig Terott Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 691	The manual is not my friend (a little sarcasm). Back to my original thought. I miss the 1/30 shutter speed in 60i. The EX1 can't do it. Please tell me I'm wrong.

February 19th, 2009, 10:46 AM	#8
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	I think you better reread these posts and the manual. Apparently you're not understanding. There are only so many ways people can say it can and it's in the manual.

February 19th, 2009, 11:02 AM	#9
Craig Terott Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 691	Craig, I don't think you are picking up what I'm throwing down to you. In 30p with shutter off I am getting 1/30 shutter. No problem. But... In 60i with shutter off the shutter speed is 1/60. Back to my original point. I miss 1/30 in 60i. The EX1 won't do it.

February 19th, 2009, 11:17 AM	#10
Omar Idris Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middlesex, UK Posts: 28	Craig wouldn't 1/30th in 60Hz be the same as SLS mode accumulating 2 frames? Does the 1/30th setting on your Z1 give you 60 distinct images per second or 30? If it's 30 then I think SLS: 2 is your answer.

February 19th, 2009, 11:39 AM	#12
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	I think people didn't take their video math 101. 30p and 60i are BOTH 30fps. (actually 29.97fps or 59.94i). Shutter off is 1/30 whether 30 progressive frames or 30 interlace frames. SLS2 is TWO FRAME ACCUMULATION. At 30fps that's 1/15. Interlaced video has TWO FIELDS FOR EACH FRAME.

February 19th, 2009, 12:14 PM	#13
Omar Idris Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middlesex, UK Posts: 28	Craig Seeman, I don't think shouting is called for. It doesn't get your point across any clearer and just gives a bad impression. Also, let's not make assumptions about people, we are all here to learn in one way or another. As for video math, with all due respect, 30Hz and 60Hz are not the same thing. Besides the i and p nomenclature has nothing to do with frame-rates rather frame-formats. There is no such thing as an interlaced frame-rate. Since at 60Hz (which we all know is actually 60,000/1001) the sensors gather light for half the time they do at 30Hz, the shutter speed is effectively doubled. So 1/15th at 30Hz would give 1/30th at 60Hz. I don't own a Z1, that's why in my post I asked how many distinct frames Craig Terrot got with his Z1 at 60Hz with a 1/30th shutter.

February 19th, 2009, 01:13 PM	#14
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Omar, Sorry you feel I'm shouting. The concepts are simple. The OP has a Z1 I'm sure (or at least suspect) they are familiar with its functions and trying to compare to EX series. i60 is 30 frames per second (59.97 fields per second). p30 is also 30 frames per second. Your use of Hz is misleading. i60 is 60 fields per second which is 30 frames per second. 1/15 is a measure in seconds. 1/15 of a second is just that. It has nothing to do with Hz. A frame on the other hand can be of various durations. i60 is 30 frames per second p60 is 60 frames per second This is why Hz is misleading. The OP asked about i60 which is the same frame rate as p30. BOTH are 30 frames a second. Shutter speed doesn't "double." It's exactly what you set it to when using fractional time (as opposed to angle). It's impact on light gathering on the sensor is DIFFERENT at different field or frame rates. Shutter off at either i60 or p30 is 1/30 of a second on the EX1. Shutter off on the EX1 equals duration of a FRAME. At i60 it is 1/30 at p30 it is 1/30 Both i60 and p30 are the same frame rate.

February 19th, 2009, 01:25 PM	#15
Craig Terott Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 691	I'm sorry I can't answer your question about distinct frames Omar unless I unearth some of my archived Z1 video (I no longer own the Z1). But I can clearly explain how the two cameras behave very differently: [Z1U in 60i ,in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Now, I change the shutter from 1/60 to 1/30 and the image gets noticably brighter. [EX1 in 60i, in low-light conditions, iris open, shutter on 1/60] Turn shutter switch OFF and the image is exactly the same. No brightness increase. My observation demonstrates that there is no change, in 60i, between 1/60 and shutter OFF.