Flim Look vs Video Look at DVinfo.net

Mitchell Lewis · February 14th, 2009, 09:48 AM

After using our EX3 for a while now and reading this forum quite a bit, I'm starting to learn that their are two distinct personalities of users.

1) People that want the look of film
2) People that want the look of very high quality video (like on the Discovery Channel)

I think it's important understand the differences here (I'm no expert, feel free to chime in).

FILM LOOK
Shoot progressive (gives a slight shutter look)
Shoot 24p (this isn't always the case, 30P is also popular)
Shoot with detail off (I haven't tried this yet myself)
CINE Gamma settings (CINE4 is popular)
35mm adaptors are also popular

VIDEO LOOK
Shoot interlaced (smooth motion)
Shoot 1080 60i
Shoot with detail on (this is just a guess on my part....might be wrong about this)
STD or CINE gamma settings (both are popular)
Final delivery will be for broadcast use (normally interlaced)

The point is, going for "the film look" isn't the same as wanting the highest quality video. It depends on the look you're going for. I made this mistake as I always thought that the "film look" was the holy grail and had to be the look I wanted. I've found that I don't really like the look of 24p, but have settled on 30p as of now. (might try 60i soon)

There are lots of things that determine "video quality" and some of it comes down to personal taste.

I've found this journey very interesting and enlightening. Just thought I'd share. :)

Jay Gladwell · February 14th, 2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchell Lewis

There are lots of things that determine "video quality" and some of it comes down to personal taste.

Probably one of the most profound, insightful declarations on this entire site.

Simon Wyndham · February 14th, 2009, 10:56 AM

I don't see 'film look' and 'video look' any more. I just see 'a look'. My preference is high framerate progressive scan. High quality 1080/50p would look sublime and I can't wait for it to come onto the market in force.

Otherwise, aside from 720p/50/60 my preference is to shoot 25p, not for film look, but for versatility. I like the look of it too, but I don't use it any more for the purpose of trying dismally to make my video look like 35mm.

Gary Nattrass · February 14th, 2009, 11:24 AM

I have settled for 1080i 50i with shutter at 100 for shooting and 1080i 25p for delivery in pro res 422.

Erik Phairas · February 14th, 2009, 11:37 AM

Then there is me that shoots for the internet. Pretty much the only place my video will be seen.

I always shoot progressive because I hate interlaced, and so far my "look" has been crappy white balance...LOL

I"m thinking of have it copyrighted...

Chris Leong · February 14th, 2009, 11:47 AM

And I shoot both - 1080i60 for real life looking material (for me that's how-to's, industrials and unscripted reality shows) and 720p30 for scripted dramatic programs, mainly because the stories I shoot have a substantial amount of slow motion and undercrank in them.

Will be experimenting with higher res and framerate progressive for drama if and when, but those are my main modes for now.

Mitchell Lewis · February 14th, 2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Nattrass

I have settled for 1080i 50i with shutter at 100 for shooting and 1080i 25p for delivery in pro res 422.

Gary, what's 1080i 25p? hehehehe (I assume that's a typo)

Thanks for sharing everyone. I think this is becoming a useful thread.

Matt Davis · February 14th, 2009, 12:31 PM

How bizzare - I posted a blog article musing the very same thing just yesterday...

You got the look TV Soup

But to save you the click, I reckon 'The Film Look' is going to become a quaint or stylistic expression, like doing something in black and white.

Lots of cameras have moved on from the 'video' look of narrow exposure range, artificial sharpening and interlaced motion. So are we going to dub the super-real 1080p50/60 clean sharp images 'the HD look'?

And whilst we're here thinking about looks is it my imagination, or has the 'Top Gear' vignette and fast shutter speed 'look', once used sparingly and with absolute precision in the aforementioned entertainment series, become a poultice to apply to 'reality' TV material to make it look 'exciting'? 'Looks'? Bah!

What the camera should be doing (says he, chewing on the meerschaum and kicking the Labrador) is getting a nice neutral image with a range of tones and a neutral demeanour so that the colourist has something to work upon. Interlace be damned. Shoot enough frames and let your format decide.

But what bugs me is that we're pushed higher and higher into the realms of technical quality, yet the biggest market seems to be 'the fourth screen' wherein we'd be lucky to get 640x360. I'd say that with scaling down, it would be hard for most audiences (or even buyers) to tell the difference between 35mm and a well sorted EX or HVX. So then we're into a whole other argument - video acting vs film acting, video script vs film script, video sound vs film sound.

But the nurse says I must rest now.

Darren Ruddock · February 14th, 2009, 01:47 PM

I thought interlaced looked better when I first got my EX1. However progressive is the way to go. I have found that you have to shoot in a completely different way.

The motion issues are only a problem if you wave the camera around like a nutcase! I look at stuff on TV completely differently now. Most shots contain lots of movement in the frame rather than the camera moving around. Fast motion within the frame combined with fast cutting gives the feeling of motion without there actually being any, or very little, camera movement.

Music videos and TV ads are a good example. I believe that most commercials are still shot on film. HD cameras have to be handled a lot like film cameras. Film cameras get that "juddery" look too if not used properly.

I don't think I'd ever shoot interlaced again. I love the progressive look. Interlaced just looks far too stark.

Erik Phairas · February 14th, 2009, 01:54 PM

I like the smooth motion of interlaced, I just like the solid look of the progressive framerates more. If 1080x60p ever gets widely adopted (by websites, TVs, and so on) and cameras start supporting it.. I'm there.

Craig Seeman · February 14th, 2009, 01:59 PM

Good thoughts Mitchell.

It really does come down to what you like as well as what you need. The great thing is the EX can do it all. So here's my sentiments.

I don't like 24p. I don't like the lack of temporal resolution. Sure a good DP can work with it with the limits of camera moves etc. but me, I find it a handicap.

I shoot 1080p30 most of the time. I like progressive over interlace but I also like more temporal resolution that 30p affords.

Now if I'm shooting fast action I'll shoot 720p60.

I'll shoot 720p30 if I need to do a lot of overcranking.

If I'm really backed into a DARK corner I might shoot 1080i60 because interlace results in a major sensitivity increase but it's a really dark corner for me to make that choice.

For web, digital signage and corporate HDTV presentation it's progressive as well.

For Broadcast (SD TV spots in my case) I'm sorta torn given I need 480i60 in the end.

Generally 1080p30 is the all around best though. It gives me progressive I like and need for most delivery. It gives me a nice big frame size if I need to use it in a standard def timeline (reposition and "ken burn" type moves on moving video, etc). It gives reasonable temporal resolution for most of what I shoot. It also chroma keys much better than interlace.

Matt Davis · February 14th, 2009, 03:16 PM

Please, can somebody answer me...

What HD device can our viewers realistically buy now with even a shred of desire that natively displays interlaced video?

Shooting interlace is just a cheap way of getting twice the frame rate, but with the caveat that you get soft video with at least 25% less resolution as a best case scenario. Shoot 1080iXX and what you're getting is 720p

Mitchell Lewis · February 14th, 2009, 11:32 PM

MATT: I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that most television is still broadcast in interlaced format, whether it's HD (Discovery HD, etc...) or SD. Why I don't know, but those are currently the parameters that some of us must work in.

But by responding to your question I am in no way condoning the use of interlaced video. I'm just simply trying to answer your question.

Mark Miner · February 14th, 2009, 11:42 PM

I like the look of 1080 30p. What is the final target of this progressive rate. I currently burn to blu-ray and shoot 1080 60i. I did not like 24p (which IS a legal blu-ray spec).

1080 30p looks good but what is your final destination for it?

Mark Miner

Craig Seeman · February 15th, 2009, 09:23 AM

HDTV TV Channels in the USA/NTSC are 720p60 and 1080i60, so interlace is still very much in use for HD. Note that both formats have high temporal resolution.

February 14th, 2009, 09:48 AM	#1
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	Flim Look vs Video Look After using our EX3 for a while now and reading this forum quite a bit, I'm starting to learn that their are two distinct personalities of users. 1) People that want the look of film 2) People that want the look of very high quality video (like on the Discovery Channel) I think it's important understand the differences here (I'm no expert, feel free to chime in). FILM LOOK Shoot progressive (gives a slight shutter look) Shoot 24p (this isn't always the case, 30P is also popular) Shoot with detail off (I haven't tried this yet myself) CINE Gamma settings (CINE4 is popular) 35mm adaptors are also popular VIDEO LOOK Shoot interlaced (smooth motion) Shoot 1080 60i Shoot with detail on (this is just a guess on my part....might be wrong about this) STD or CINE gamma settings (both are popular) Final delivery will be for broadcast use (normally interlaced) The point is, going for "the film look" isn't the same as wanting the highest quality video. It depends on the look you're going for. I made this mistake as I always thought that the "film look" was the holy grail and had to be the look I wanted. I've found that I don't really like the look of 24p, but have settled on 30p as of now. (might try 60i soon) There are lots of things that determine "video quality" and some of it comes down to personal taste. I've found this journey very interesting and enlightening. Just thought I'd share. :) __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

February 14th, 2009, 11:24 AM	#4
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	I have settled for 1080i 50i with shutter at 100 for shooting and 1080i 25p for delivery in pro res 422. __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

February 14th, 2009, 11:37 AM	#5
Erik Phairas Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 628	Then there is me that shoots for the internet. Pretty much the only place my video will be seen. I always shoot progressive because I hate interlaced, and so far my "look" has been crappy white balance...LOL I"m thinking of have it copyrighted... __________________ EX3, Q6600 Quad core PC - Vista 64, Vegas 8.1 64bit, SR11 b-cam

February 14th, 2009, 11:47 AM	#6
Chris Leong Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles CA USA Posts: 507	And I shoot both - 1080i60 for real life looking material (for me that's how-to's, industrials and unscripted reality shows) and 720p30 for scripted dramatic programs, mainly because the stories I shoot have a substantial amount of slow motion and undercrank in them. Will be experimenting with higher res and framerate progressive for drama if and when, but those are my main modes for now. __________________ "The content, not the container."

February 14th, 2009, 12:31 PM	#8
Matt Davis Trustee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 1,562	How bizzare - I posted a blog article musing the very same thing just yesterday... You got the look TV Soup But to save you the click, I reckon 'The Film Look' is going to become a quaint or stylistic expression, like doing something in black and white. Lots of cameras have moved on from the 'video' look of narrow exposure range, artificial sharpening and interlaced motion. So are we going to dub the super-real 1080p50/60 clean sharp images 'the HD look'? And whilst we're here thinking about looks is it my imagination, or has the 'Top Gear' vignette and fast shutter speed 'look', once used sparingly and with absolute precision in the aforementioned entertainment series, become a poultice to apply to 'reality' TV material to make it look 'exciting'? 'Looks'? Bah! What the camera should be doing (says he, chewing on the meerschaum and kicking the Labrador) is getting a nice neutral image with a range of tones and a neutral demeanour so that the colourist has something to work upon. Interlace be damned. Shoot enough frames and let your format decide. But what bugs me is that we're pushed higher and higher into the realms of technical quality, yet the biggest market seems to be 'the fourth screen' wherein we'd be lucky to get 640x360. I'd say that with scaling down, it would be hard for most audiences (or even buyers) to tell the difference between 35mm and a well sorted EX or HVX. So then we're into a whole other argument - video acting vs film acting, video script vs film script, video sound vs film sound. But the nurse says I must rest now. __________________ Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6

February 14th, 2009, 10:56 AM	#3
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	I don't see 'film look' and 'video look' any more. I just see 'a look'. My preference is high framerate progressive scan. High quality 1080/50p would look sublime and I can't wait for it to come onto the market in force. Otherwise, aside from 720p/50/60 my preference is to shoot 25p, not for film look, but for versatility. I like the look of it too, but I don't use it any more for the purpose of trying dismally to make my video look like 35mm.

February 14th, 2009, 01:47 PM	#9
Darren Ruddock Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Southend, UK Posts: 165	I thought interlaced looked better when I first got my EX1. However progressive is the way to go. I have found that you have to shoot in a completely different way. The motion issues are only a problem if you wave the camera around like a nutcase! I look at stuff on TV completely differently now. Most shots contain lots of movement in the frame rather than the camera moving around. Fast motion within the frame combined with fast cutting gives the feeling of motion without there actually being any, or very little, camera movement. Music videos and TV ads are a good example. I believe that most commercials are still shot on film. HD cameras have to be handled a lot like film cameras. Film cameras get that "juddery" look too if not used properly. I don't think I'd ever shoot interlaced again. I love the progressive look. Interlaced just looks far too stark.

February 14th, 2009, 01:54 PM	#10
Erik Phairas Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 628	I like the smooth motion of interlaced, I just like the solid look of the progressive framerates more. If 1080x60p ever gets widely adopted (by websites, TVs, and so on) and cameras start supporting it.. I'm there. __________________ EX3, Q6600 Quad core PC - Vista 64, Vegas 8.1 64bit, SR11 b-cam

February 14th, 2009, 01:59 PM	#11
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Good thoughts Mitchell. It really does come down to what you like as well as what you need. The great thing is the EX can do it all. So here's my sentiments. I don't like 24p. I don't like the lack of temporal resolution. Sure a good DP can work with it with the limits of camera moves etc. but me, I find it a handicap. I shoot 1080p30 most of the time. I like progressive over interlace but I also like more temporal resolution that 30p affords. Now if I'm shooting fast action I'll shoot 720p60. I'll shoot 720p30 if I need to do a lot of overcranking. If I'm really backed into a DARK corner I might shoot 1080i60 because interlace results in a major sensitivity increase but it's a really dark corner for me to make that choice. For web, digital signage and corporate HDTV presentation it's progressive as well. For Broadcast (SD TV spots in my case) I'm sorta torn given I need 480i60 in the end. Generally 1080p30 is the all around best though. It gives me progressive I like and need for most delivery. It gives me a nice big frame size if I need to use it in a standard def timeline (reposition and "ken burn" type moves on moving video, etc). It gives reasonable temporal resolution for most of what I shoot. It also chroma keys much better than interlace.

February 14th, 2009, 03:16 PM	#12
Matt Davis Trustee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 1,562	Interlaced? Schminterlaced! Please, can somebody answer me... What HD device can our viewers realistically buy now with even a shred of desire that natively displays interlaced video? Shooting interlace is just a cheap way of getting twice the frame rate, but with the caveat that you get soft video with at least 25% less resolution as a best case scenario. Shoot 1080iXX and what you're getting is 720p __________________ Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6

February 14th, 2009, 11:32 PM	#13
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	MATT: I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that most television is still broadcast in interlaced format, whether it's HD (Discovery HD, etc...) or SD. Why I don't know, but those are currently the parameters that some of us must work in. But by responding to your question I am in no way condoning the use of interlaced video. I'm just simply trying to answer your question. __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

February 14th, 2009, 11:42 PM	#14
Mark Miner New Boot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Posts: 9	I like the look of 1080 30p. What is the final target of this progressive rate. I currently burn to blu-ray and shoot 1080 60i. I did not like 24p (which IS a legal blu-ray spec). 1080 30p looks good but what is your final destination for it? Mark Miner

February 15th, 2009, 09:23 AM	#15
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	HDTV TV Channels in the USA/NTSC are 720p60 and 1080i60, so interlace is still very much in use for HD. Note that both formats have high temporal resolution.