Don't Be Afraid To Turn Off The Detail! at DVinfo.net

Brian Mills · February 12th, 2009, 03:51 PM

So I almost sold my Ex1:

I always loved this camera in 720p60 or 1080i modes, but every time I shot 1080p24, I got not "judder" but rather a crazy drop in resolution during movement and pans that was very "off-putting" to say the least.

I am gearing up to shoot a film and cannot have those super-soft pans, so I was going to get rid of the EX in favor of something else, when I read the BBC engineering paper quoted in an earlier post in this section that recommended turning the detail way down or even off while shooting "film-like" video. So I tried it....

WOW! Not only is that weird resolution flux gone during movements (there is now just natural motion blur or judder one would expect), but it gives the image a much more organic, less video-y feel to it. And the great thing is, you can always add sharpening in post later if you feel you need it, but shooting well-focused 1080P I don't think it needs it.

So if I am shooting 720p60 or 1080i for corporate, video-y video, I will use sharpening so you get that "looking through a window" look. But for film-y video, its detail off for me, baby.

Anyone trying out this camera for an evaluation, definitely try detail off or at least way down (-25 through -40 or so).

With this camera, the Devil is in the Detail...

Brian Mills · February 12th, 2009, 03:58 PM

And sorry for the triple post - it kept saying "gateway timeout error" so I thought the posts weren't going through. My bad!

Greg Boston · February 12th, 2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Mills

And sorry for the triple post - it kept saying "gateway timeout error" so I thought the posts weren't going through. My bad!

No problem Brian. Our guru is on it as we speak. You aren't the only victim of that message today.

-gb-

Glynn Morgan · February 13th, 2009, 12:15 AM

I never have detail on, I don't trust a digital detail enhancer, even if it is "in-camera". If someone can correct me on this (that it is actually better) I am happy to see evidence.

But good advice none the less.

Jeff DeMaagd · February 13th, 2009, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glynn Morgan

I never have detail on, I don't trust a digital detail enhancer, even if it is "in-camera". If someone can correct me on this (that it is actually better) I am happy to see evidence.

But good advice none the less.

I think digital detail enhancer is probably a fancy name for edge enhancement. If that's true, then you don't want it for a couple reasons, one, it tends to reduce resolution, and another, it's harder to to encode well at a given bit rate.

Dean Sensui · February 13th, 2009, 03:11 AM

This camera captures enough detail on its own that I just keep the detail options "off".

David Issko · February 13th, 2009, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Mills

But for film-y video, its detail off for me, baby.

Anyone trying out this camera for an evaluation, definitely try detail off or at least way down (-25 through -40 or so).

With this camera, the Devil is in the Detail...

I recently spent some time with my EX3 and resolution chart in an attempt to get the 'best look' out of 1080 25P.

My tests concur with your evaluation in that -30 detail level setting was about the same as running the camera with the detail off.

Even with the level at 0, the display on the waveform monitor was full of artificial spikes.

With the above setting, I have found that the camera offers a very nice image (in conjunction with Matrix set to Hi-Sat although some may like a little less chroma saturation, -3 black level and Cine 1 Gamma setting). This works well for me.

Paul Kellett · February 13th, 2009, 05:07 AM

I run detail on but at about -20, that way i still have the other options available to me such as crispening and frequency, if detail is turned off then the the other detail options get greyed out.

Paul.

Paul Curtis · February 13th, 2009, 05:29 AM

I think detail off should be default. I cannot imagine a real world situation that would actually benefit from it. If anything the contrasty edges would make the codecs job harder and result in more compression artifacts. There were tests ages ago that showed the difference between on and off. It was like video vs film (well okay, not quite), worlds of difference though. I forget that many new people visit here all the time and wouldn't have seen them. Electronic detail is evil and should be banished forever...

In general manufacturers are forced to make cameras to be used in situations where there is no post (ENG) hence having all these image modifications in camera. However if you're using it in post workflow then you just want to capture the best you can and work on it afterwards, not in the field. So i leave everything aside from shutter speed, aperture, gamma and white balance - that's all i worry about and it serves me fine.

cheers
paul

Malcolm Hamilton · February 13th, 2009, 02:46 PM

Hi... following this with interest. Would someone mind telling me how to turn the detail down to minus-twenty or minus-thirty? Is it in the menu?
Also, if I have to shoot some footage in PAL, 1080 25P, should I go to the Flicker Reduce setting in my camera menu, and change from 60Hz to 50Hz?
Thanks,
Malcolm

Keith Moreau · February 13th, 2009, 03:31 PM

I've shot with Detail off for about 1 year based on posts here and my experience is that the EX it's sharp enough and pleasing without it on. If one desires more 'crisp' picture quality that can be added easily and controllably in post. I think the non-intuitive setting of "0" has messed up a lot of people, as a "0" setting isn't neutral but quite a severe enhancement.

I appreciate Brian's input about it affecting pans or frames with movement, it's good to know this in case I ever see the need to use it.

David Issko · February 13th, 2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malcolm Hamilton

Hi... following this with interest. Would someone mind telling me how to turn the detail down to minus-twenty or minus-thirty? Is it in the menu?
Also, if I have to shoot some footage in PAL, 1080 25P, should I go to the Flicker Reduce setting in my camera menu, and change from 60Hz to 50Hz?
Thanks,
Malcolm

its in the picture profiles menu setup under detail. switch detail on so you can access the menu items. go from there. save your pp with an appropriate name. before shooting anything, test your settings to ensure that it is acceptable for you.

i have spent a long time adjusting and re-adjusting my pp settings until i found my favourite settings.

flicker reduce is to minimise flicker from flouro lights. i have worked with it on and off whilst under flouro lighting that could not be turned off for reasons that i fdo not remember and i cannot see any difference. possibly other have seen a difference.

Malcolm Hamilton · February 13th, 2009, 04:58 PM

thanks David,
I'll get into the picture profiles and get rid of the detail.
Appreciate the help. Malcolm

Serena Steuart · February 14th, 2009, 07:04 PM

I don't see this specifically stated in the posts above, so I'll add a little. When sharpening is "on" during camera movement (e.g. pan) motion blur means the image contains no well defined edges and the sharpening algorithm has nothing much to work with. The algorithm "springs into action" (so to speak!) when the image is steady so at the end of a pan the image "pops" into sharper focus. This is quite visible.

Mitchell Lewis · February 14th, 2009, 09:05 PM

OH! That description helps A LOT!!! I've been wondering what was happening when it snapped into focus. A long time ago when the EX1 first came out Barry Green did a review of it and seemed to think that that "popping into focus" was the cause of the CMOS sensor. I didn't think there was anything you can do about it. Now I can't wait to turn the Detail off.

Thank you very much. (It's amazing how a simple description like that can clear things up)

February 12th, 2009, 03:51 PM	#1
Brian Mills Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 126	Don't Be Afraid To Turn Off The Detail! So I almost sold my Ex1: I always loved this camera in 720p60 or 1080i modes, but every time I shot 1080p24, I got not "judder" but rather a crazy drop in resolution during movement and pans that was very "off-putting" to say the least. I am gearing up to shoot a film and cannot have those super-soft pans, so I was going to get rid of the EX in favor of something else, when I read the BBC engineering paper quoted in an earlier post in this section that recommended turning the detail way down or even off while shooting "film-like" video. So I tried it.... WOW! Not only is that weird resolution flux gone during movements (there is now just natural motion blur or judder one would expect), but it gives the image a much more organic, less video-y feel to it. And the great thing is, you can always add sharpening in post later if you feel you need it, but shooting well-focused 1080P I don't think it needs it. So if I am shooting 720p60 or 1080i for corporate, video-y video, I will use sharpening so you get that "looking through a window" look. But for film-y video, its detail off for me, baby. Anyone trying out this camera for an evaluation, definitely try detail off or at least way down (-25 through -40 or so). With this camera, the Devil is in the Detail...

February 13th, 2009, 03:11 AM	#6
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	This camera captures enough detail on its own that I just keep the detail options "off". __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

February 13th, 2009, 05:07 AM	#8
Paul Kellett Trustee Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bristol UK Posts: 1,273	I run detail on but at about -20, that way i still have the other options available to me such as crispening and frequency, if detail is turned off then the the other detail options get greyed out. Paul. __________________ Round 2 GH5,FZ2000

February 14th, 2009, 09:05 PM	#15
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	OH! That description helps A LOT!!! I've been wondering what was happening when it snapped into focus. A long time ago when the EX1 first came out Barry Green did a review of it and seemed to think that that "popping into focus" was the cause of the CMOS sensor. I didn't think there was anything you can do about it. Now I can't wait to turn the Detail off. Thank you very much. (It's amazing how a simple description like that can clear things up) __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

February 12th, 2009, 03:58 PM	#2
Brian Mills Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 126	And sorry for the triple post - it kept saying "gateway timeout error" so I thought the posts weren't going through. My bad!

February 13th, 2009, 12:15 AM	#4
Glynn Morgan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 119	I never have detail on, I don't trust a digital detail enhancer, even if it is "in-camera". If someone can correct me on this (that it is actually better) I am happy to see evidence. But good advice none the less.

February 13th, 2009, 05:29 AM	#9
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	I think detail off should be default. I cannot imagine a real world situation that would actually benefit from it. If anything the contrasty edges would make the codecs job harder and result in more compression artifacts. There were tests ages ago that showed the difference between on and off. It was like video vs film (well okay, not quite), worlds of difference though. I forget that many new people visit here all the time and wouldn't have seen them. Electronic detail is evil and should be banished forever... In general manufacturers are forced to make cameras to be used in situations where there is no post (ENG) hence having all these image modifications in camera. However if you're using it in post workflow then you just want to capture the best you can and work on it afterwards, not in the field. So i leave everything aside from shutter speed, aperture, gamma and white balance - that's all i worry about and it serves me fine. cheers paul

February 13th, 2009, 02:46 PM	#10
Malcolm Hamilton Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 844	Hi... following this with interest. Would someone mind telling me how to turn the detail down to minus-twenty or minus-thirty? Is it in the menu? Also, if I have to shoot some footage in PAL, 1080 25P, should I go to the Flicker Reduce setting in my camera menu, and change from 60Hz to 50Hz? Thanks, Malcolm

February 13th, 2009, 03:31 PM	#11
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	I've shot with Detail off for about 1 year based on posts here and my experience is that the EX it's sharp enough and pleasing without it on. If one desires more 'crisp' picture quality that can be added easily and controllably in post. I think the non-intuitive setting of "0" has messed up a lot of people, as a "0" setting isn't neutral but quite a severe enhancement. I appreciate Brian's input about it affecting pans or frames with movement, it's good to know this in case I ever see the need to use it.

February 13th, 2009, 04:58 PM	#13
Malcolm Hamilton Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 844	thanks David, I'll get into the picture profiles and get rid of the detail. Appreciate the help. Malcolm

February 14th, 2009, 07:04 PM	#14
Serena Steuart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Studio Alnitak, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 640 Images: 3	I don't see this specifically stated in the posts above, so I'll add a little. When sharpening is "on" during camera movement (e.g. pan) motion blur means the image contains no well defined edges and the sharpening algorithm has nothing much to work with. The algorithm "springs into action" (so to speak!) when the image is steady so at the end of a pan the image "pops" into sharper focus. This is quite visible.