1080 60i versus 1080 24p

[Barry J. Weckesser]

I have been watching this forum for over a year now gathering as much info as possible before jumping in and finally purchasing the PMW-EX1. Since it looks like we have an excellent (and relatively inexpensive) storage media (MxR adaptor and SDHC cards) I figured now is the time!

My question to the forum: what would be the best format to shoot in : 1080 60i or 1080 24p.

A little bankground - I am a hobbyist and my videos are of family vacations, activities, my children's birthday parties etc - sort of equally split between indoor and outdoor shots and some with lots of motion (the kids are 7-9 yrs old). All of my videos end up on blu-ray (I have been authoring blu-ray discs with DVD-It PROHD for over a year now).

I have always shot in 1080 60i on my present cameras - Sony FX-1 and Sony V1U but figured I should use the PMW-EX1 to get the best possible image and performance. I have watched the Vortex Media Instructional DVD and Doug Jensen certainly shies away from interlaced in any format.

Comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Paul Joy]

I don't think there is a "Best" to be honest. Personally I'll choose progressive every time because I just prefer the way it looks and not having to deal with interlacing at edit and export stages.

24p will look a whole lot different to 60i, best thing to do is shoot in both and see which you like the best.

[Chris Barcellos]

If you are happy with the FX1 results, in 60i, then you will be happy with EX1 60i. The point of 24p is to get you a more film like cadence. In using it, in your actions and kid tracking shots, and hand held situations, you will see 24p stutter. It is inevitible in such shooting situations. Filmmakers shooting 24p will shoot, instinctively and by training to avoid such stutter. Careful Tripod panning and careful hand held shooting is what makes 24p stay looking good. You need to experiment a bit to see if you are okay with those issues.

[Buba Kastorski]

Totally depends on what you're shooting and delivery format

[Robert Young]

I think that 1080x1920 Blu Ray is actually a 60i format, so it's kind of a natural to shoot & edit in 60i for Blu Ray delivery- unless you are trying to create some particular "look".

[Barry J. Weckesser]

Originally Posted by Robert Young

I think that 1080x1920 Blu Ray is actually a 60i format, so it's kind of a natural to shoot & edit in 60i for Blu Ray delivery- unless you are trying to create some particular "look".

Actually 1080 24p is a blu-ray legal format - tried it out with my DVD-It-PROHD software and it was accepted without re-encoding. I think all of the movies (commercial) are delivered in 1080 24p.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

If you are happy with the FX1 results, in 60i, then you will be happy with EX1 60i. The point of 24p is to get you a more film like cadence. In using it, in your actions and kid tracking shots, and hand held situations, you will see 24p stutter. It is inevitible in such shooting situations. Filmmakers shooting 24p will shoot, instinctively and by training to avoid such stutter. Careful Tripod panning and careful hand held shooting is what makes 24p stay looking good. You need to experiment a bit to see if you are okay with those issues.

I have been very careful with panning and my hand held shots but even with 60i there can be stutter - I suppose that is magnified with 24p. Good point to consider.

[Andrew Stone]

If a lot of your stuff is going to end up on the web on YouTube or Vimeo or if you are hosting your own videos, then progressive makes more sense (most of the time). You won't have to deal with panning artifacts that show up in web based video which you will most likely get when you shoot in interlaced.

If you shoot in 30p then you can convert your orginals into DV (std def.) format. If you shoot 24p the conversion software, Sony's EX Clip Browser, won't let you export to DV if you are shooting 24p. You can down convert to DV in other software from 24p but using Sony's free app you have to use 60i or 30p to be able to down convert to DV.

You should definitely spend some time tinkering with 24p though and see if you like the look.

[Robert Young]

Barry
You are indeed correct- Blu Ray 1080 60i, or 24p, but not 30p.
I've been watching this for years. Some folks like 24p, and others 60i. They all have great reasons why one is better than the other. It's almost like P.C. vs. Mac.
Honestly, shooting 24p requires close attention and careful technique but you can get a nice looking result. I think of it as being more suitable for controlled scenes as in narrative film production. For run n' gun shooting, 60i is pretty bulletproof, and there are plenty of good solutions for downconvert/deinterlace of 1080x1920 60i footage for display on the web and other delivery.
Best thing you can do is try it all and see what you like.

[Barry J. Weckesser]

Originally Posted by Robert Young

Barry
You are indeed correct- Blu Ray 1080 60i, or 24p, but not 30p.
I've been watching this for years. Some folks like 24p, and others 60i. They all have great reasons why one is better than the other. It's almost like P.C. vs. Mac.
Honestly, shooting 24p requires close attention and careful technique but you can get a nice looking result. I think of it as being more suitable for controlled scenes as in narrative film production. For run n' gun shooting, 60i is pretty bulletproof, and there are plenty of good solutions for downconvert/deinterlace of 1080x1920 60i footage for display on the web and other delivery.
Best thing you can do is try it all and see what you like.

I have been shooting HDV for over 4 years now and have always used 60i and have been pleased with it. However, after watching Doug Jensen's- Vortex Media instructional DVD I was left with the impression that not shooting 24p would be a "waste" with a camera of this capability. Sounds like just another personal opinion and there is no absolute concensus as to which format is best. For my purposed it sounds like I should continue with 60i.

[Robert Young]

Doug's DVD is an example of what I made reference to- it is a controlled studio shoot wherein the talent talks & moves, but the camera doesn't (or mostly doesn't). It's a great set up for 24p. One of the few times I've used 24p was a similar set up. The only time my camera moved was to track the subject a bit, or creep the zoom.
But most real time stuff- family, events. weddings, travel, etc., you need to be really careful to get away with 24p IMO.

[Mitchell Lewis]

I've put 1080 30P to Blu-Ray using Toast 10 (on a Mac). But maybe Toast re-encoded it....dunno. Worked great and looked great though.

I'm really tempted to switch to 60i though. Most of my stuff is getting converted to DV or some type of Standard Def format (usually interlaced) 60i let's a lot more light in too.

[Robert Young]

I've done that as well, where I have edited in 30p and encoded for BR. I think the encoding just breaks the 30 frames into 60i. It looks exactly the same to me as the 30p, which makes sense.
When I was shooting DV, and HDV, I would have issues due to interlacing, some of them really annoying. Ever since switching to 1920x1080 sq. pix. with the EX and AVCHD, and editing with an .avi DI (Cineform), I am finding no real downside to shooting 60i. In fact, it has become my default format

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by Robert Young

Doug's DVD is an example of what I made reference to- it is a controlled studio shoot wherein the talent talks & moves, but the camera doesn't (or mostly doesn't). It's a great set up for 24p. One of the few times I've used 24p was a similar set up. The only time my camera moved was to track the subject a bit, or creep the zoom.
But most real time stuff- family, events. weddings, travel, etc., you need to be really careful to get away with 24p IMO.

I don't know where people have gotten the impression that I shoot 24P. I am one of the biggest anti-24P you'll find. 99% of my DVDs are shot at 30P and there's only a couple of 24P shots thrown in for just for comparison purposes.

The only reason to shoot 24P is if you are truly going to transfer to film. 30P provides the non-interlaced look of progressive without the jittery after taste.

Doug

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by Robert Young

I've done that as well, where I have edited in 30p and encoded for BR. I think the encoding just breaks the 30 frames into 60i. It looks exactly the same to me as the 30p, which makes sense

Bob, I'm not expert in this area but I agree with you 100%.

30P transferred to 60i gives you two identical interlaced fields that look just like one progressive frame when they are put together. I don't think you can tell the difference between native 30P and 30P that has been transferred to 60i and that's why Blu-ray doesn't even bother with a 30P mode. It would be redundant.

Doug

[Barry J. Weckesser]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Bob, I'm not expert in this area but I agree with you 100%.

30P transferred to 60i gives you two identical interlaced fields that look just like one progressive frame when they are put together. I don't think you can tell the difference between native 30P and 30P that has been transferred to 60i and that's why Blu-ray doesn't even bother with a 30P mode. It would be redundant.

Doug

Actually, in your Vortex Media Video you do recommend 30p as the format of choice. So you are saying that it is preferable to shoot in 30P and then re-encode to the 60i format to make it blu-ray "legal" as opposed to shooting directly in 60i?

I was just concerned about possible quality deterioration from the encoding process but I suppose with a good program that should not be of concern? (I use Procoder 3 from Grass Valley - Edius)