1080 60i versus 1080 24p

Doug Jensen · February 11th, 2009, 06:58 AM

Barry,

You're right. In the DVD I recommend 1080 30P as my preferred format for SHOOTING. I stand by that 100%.
1) Interlaced looks awful and is on it's way out.
2) 1080 (not 720) is the native resoltuon of the camera, the standard for HD monitors, stock footage, most broadcast signals, etc.
3) Broadcast television, DVDs, etc, playback at 30 fps (or 60i) not 24 fps.

But that's all I say on my DVDs. I do not address any of the post-production issues, format conversions, output to Blu-ray, etc. My DVDs are about the camcorders and not the entire XDCAM workflow. Once I have lead the viewer through the steps to get the clips imported and archived, thats where I end it. There are too many different NLEs, too many ways that footage needs to be used, too many delivery formats, etc. to even get started down that slippery slope in a DVD that is supposed to be about the camera.

Plus, another reason I don't get into the editing and output is that there's nothing unique about the XDCAM footage once it is on your computer. Whether you shot 30P, 24P, 25P, 60i, or 50i, the workflow and issues involved in post will be pretty much the same no matter what camera you shot it with. Yes, there are some diferences between codecs, but not much. I try to stay focused on issues that directly relate to using the camera I'm teaching.

Doug

Doug Jensen · February 11th, 2009, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry J. Weckesser

So you are saying that it is preferable to shoot in 30P and then re-encode to the 60i format to make it blu-ray "legal" as opposed to shooting directly in 60i?

One more thing. You seem to be misunderstanding what I wrote in an earlier post.

30P transferred to 60i will retain it's progressive "look" even though technically it's now interlaced. (see the earlier post)

That is NOT the same thing as shooting 60i in the first place. Shooting 60i and delivering 60i will always look interlaced (unless you do somthing to it in post).

Some people might like the look of interlaced, but I think it looks terrible.

Doug

Barry J. Weckesser · February 11th, 2009, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

One more thing. You seem to be misunderstanding what I wrote in an earlier post.

30P transferred to 60i will retain it's progressive "look" even though technically it's now interlaced. (see the earlier post)

That is NOT the same thing as shooting 60i in the first place. Shooting 60i and delivering 60i will always look interlaced (unless you do somthing to it in post).

Some people might like the look of interlaced, but I think it looks terrible.

Doug

Doug

Thanks for the feedback. Your last comment above was what I was really looking for - i.e. it would be better to shoot in 30p than 60i if one wants to take full advantage of the capabilities of this camera. Even though I will be editing in native XDCAM-EX format there will still have to be re-encoding into elementary streams for my blu-ray authoring app. so it doesn't really make sense to be concerned over 30p to 60i conversion.

Jay Gladwell · February 11th, 2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

3) Broadcast television, DVDs, etc, playback at 30 fps (or 60i) not 24 fps.

I brought this up a little while back and folks jumped on me like white on rice.

If broadcast, DVDs, etc., play back at 30fsp and you've shot in 24p, then where are those additional six frames coming from?

There is no way on God's green earth than anyone can convinence me that 24p looks better than 30p. Why? Because that means 20% of the image being shown never existed! That has to have a degrading affect on the final image.

If it were being shown at 24fps, it would an entirely different story.

Signed,
Uncle Ben

Josh Mellicker · February 11th, 2009, 01:22 PM

I like 30p for most projects. A little smoother than 24p, and as mentioned translates to 60i if you need it without motion judder.

Shoot 24p if the choppiness works for your story and if going to 24p DVD.

Jay Gladwell · February 11th, 2009, 04:04 PM

Josh, won't the NTSC TVs still require the DVD player to use pulldown to show the program at 30fps?

Josh Mellicker · February 11th, 2009, 06:57 PM

Hi Jay, older TVs will, but newer TVs have have chips that analyze the video signal in real time and can sense the 3:2 pulldown pattern and remove the extra fields on the fly, and actually reconstruct and display the original 24 full frames in realtime.

February 11th, 2009, 06:58 AM	#16
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,442	Barry, You're right. In the DVD I recommend 1080 30P as my preferred format for SHOOTING. I stand by that 100%. 1) Interlaced looks awful and is on it's way out. 2) 1080 (not 720) is the native resoltuon of the camera, the standard for HD monitors, stock footage, most broadcast signals, etc. 3) Broadcast television, DVDs, etc, playback at 30 fps (or 60i) not 24 fps. But that's all I say on my DVDs. I do not address any of the post-production issues, format conversions, output to Blu-ray, etc. My DVDs are about the camcorders and not the entire XDCAM workflow. Once I have lead the viewer through the steps to get the clips imported and archived, thats where I end it. There are too many different NLEs, too many ways that footage needs to be used, too many delivery formats, etc. to even get started down that slippery slope in a DVD that is supposed to be about the camera. Plus, another reason I don't get into the editing and output is that there's nothing unique about the XDCAM footage once it is on your computer. Whether you shot 30P, 24P, 25P, 60i, or 50i, the workflow and issues involved in post will be pretty much the same no matter what camera you shot it with. Yes, there are some diferences between codecs, but not much. I try to stay focused on issues that directly relate to using the camera I'm teaching. Doug

February 11th, 2009, 01:22 PM	#20
Josh Mellicker DV Creators Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 91	I like 30p for most projects. A little smoother than 24p, and as mentioned translates to 60i if you need it without motion judder. Shoot 24p if the choppiness works for your story and if going to 24p DVD.

February 11th, 2009, 04:04 PM	#21
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	Josh, won't the NTSC TVs still require the DVD player to use pulldown to show the program at 30fps?

February 11th, 2009, 06:57 PM	#22
Josh Mellicker DV Creators Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 91	Hi Jay, older TVs will, but newer TVs have have chips that analyze the video signal in real time and can sense the 3:2 pulldown pattern and remove the extra fields on the fly, and actually reconstruct and display the original 24 full frames in realtime.