The EX3 Vs My old HC1... HC1 wins in the light? at DVinfo.net

Glynn Morgan · February 8th, 2009, 04:42 AM

I did a few comparison tests between the HDV functions of the EX3 (iLink conversion) versus my old HDR-HC1 (or A1 if you are talking the professional model). Unsurprisingly the EX3 was stunning in low light and beat the HC1 easily.However, in daylight, the EX3 was more grainy than the HC1, even at 0dB...

The only thing i could see messing up my comparison is that my WB was very cold on the Ex3 compared to my HC1 (which was warm). Any Suggestions on how to improve my EX3 photography? I shall link to these images as I am new and cannot post attachments. I suppose it is possible i edited the colors in the HC1 footage (it is fairly old), but how much can coloration do to add to quality?

My Low Light Tests

HC1 http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/c...DV/mintHC1.jpg

EX3 http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/c...DV/mintEX3.jpg

My Daylight Tests (Overcast days, both 720P converted from 25Mb 1080i footage)

HC1 http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/c...intieA1HC1.jpg

EX3 http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/c.../mintieEX3.jpg

Brian Luce · February 8th, 2009, 05:13 AM

On my uncorrected junk monitor the Canon looks out of focus inside (motion blur?) and the EX looks out of focus outside. The Ex also looks underexposed on the outside shot. What were your settings on the EX? Everything looks off.

Glynn Morgan · February 8th, 2009, 06:02 AM

Not canon XH A1, the Sony HVR A1. Sorry, should have been clearer.

Uhm, nah I chose the shots with the best focus for each screen grab, the HVR A1/HCR HC1 is known for poor quality in low light.

I can't remember the settings for my EX3, but I was just messing about, I didn't think during the daylight i would have to worry about gain for a little test shoot. I had 0db, no ND filters - that's about all i can remember.

Anyway, I'm looking for advice on decreasing grain on the EX3, when my HC1 seemed to do quite well during the day with its minimal customization. I'm a new EX3 owner you see, looking to learn :)

Mitchell Lewis · February 8th, 2009, 09:21 AM

Try shooting P instead of I. Your stills will look much better and you'll capture slightly more light.

Perrone Ford · February 8th, 2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchell Lewis

Try shooting P instead of I. Your stills will look much better and you'll capture slightly more light.

I thought interlaced gathered more light.

Mitchell Lewis · February 8th, 2009, 09:29 AM

Okay, maybe I was wrong about the light (Perrone is much more of an expert with this camera than I) but it will certainly clear up the interlacing artifacts in your still photo examples.

I seem to remember that 720P brought in more light than 1080P. I think I'm right about that.

Turning the Shutter off also let's in quite a bit more light and personally, I like the look of it.

Perrone Ford · February 8th, 2009, 09:44 AM

Adam Wilt > Me! :)

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...tml#post828286

Mitchell Lewis · February 8th, 2009, 09:53 AM

Very interesting Perrone (as usual). I'm printing that off and sticking it in my camera case.

It's taking every bit of will power I've got to not start shooting 1080i (instead of p). In many ways it would make things much easier for me. But so far I'm sticking with 1080P.

Erik Phairas · February 8th, 2009, 10:48 AM

Yea but it looks like crap when you add gain at 720p or 1080i.. I always use 1080p with 6db when during night shoots.

Glynn Morgan · February 9th, 2009, 11:21 AM

I shot SP 1080i because it was the same as the HC1 (for better comparison).

By rights the same resolution should still show better image quality in the ex3? Any suggestions on how to make my image nice on overcast days?

Leonard Levy · February 9th, 2009, 11:59 AM

Glynn,
If you shot the Ex-3 outside with no internal ND on you may have come across the dirty little secret of the EX glass. I assume its the same for the EX-3 and the EX-1.
You don't ever want to close you iris even to f8. By that point you start to get softness due to diffraction the smaller iris. Its quite noticeable and surprising. That's one reason its a good idea to invest in extra ND and/or POLA glass for the front.
By f11 your really in trouble on that camera.

Mitchell Lewis · February 9th, 2009, 12:57 PM

In addition to Leonard's suggestion, I would play with your Picture Profile. Specifically the Matrix>Select: High SAT. This boosts the saturation which helps on gloomy days. Actually I think most people just leave this setting turned on.

If you look in the Picture Profile thread on this forum, you'll find a bunch of additional information on this topic.

Keith Moreau · February 9th, 2009, 01:55 PM

I have a HC1 as well as an EX1. The HC1 was an amazing consumer HD camera, one of the first and still holds it's own in certain situations, but I think one of the reasons for the lack of grain or noise you might be seeing is jut that the sensor resolution of the HC1 is quite a bit lower than the EX1 and whatever noise-processing the HC1 applies internally masks whatever noise is actually generated by the HC1. You might get less noise if you applied those same 'coring' anti-noise functions in the Picture Profiles that are available in the EX1, but I wouldn't do it, I'd wait until Post to do any anti-noise processing if I deemed it necessary.

Also the comments about smaller IRIS settings are true, there is an aperture sweet spot on the EX1 and if you don't get that sweet spot you can get surprising fuzzy images. However when you get it all right the EX image is absolutely stunning, it just takes some time to know what to do and what not to do.

The EX does have the capability to produce crappy images if you aren't careful, whereas the HC1 was designed to produce pleasing HD-like images with little fuss and if fact there isn't a whole lot you can do to modify what it wants to do.

Jeff DeMaagd · February 9th, 2009, 09:11 PM

I can't say much about the outdoor shots because the background is significantly different, and it looks like the white balance is pretty different too. Both cameras should be set to the same white balance to start out with. Without knowing more of the settings, it's hard to say much.

Glynn Morgan · February 11th, 2009, 12:53 AM

Sorry about that, I think I switched to the wrong WB setting. Thanks for the input everyone.

I have an EX3 though, not an EX1, but What would the sweet spot range be for the iris on the EX3? So i know when to use the ND filters.

I just thought it was amazing how easy it was to get noise free imagery in the same enviroment on the HC1.

February 8th, 2009, 04:42 AM	#1
Glynn Morgan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 119	The EX3 Vs My old HC1... HC1 wins in the light? I did a few comparison tests between the HDV functions of the EX3 (iLink conversion) versus my old HDR-HC1 (or A1 if you are talking the professional model). Unsurprisingly the EX3 was stunning in low light and beat the HC1 easily.However, in daylight, the EX3 was more grainy than the HC1, even at 0dB... The only thing i could see messing up my comparison is that my WB was very cold on the Ex3 compared to my HC1 (which was warm). Any Suggestions on how to improve my EX3 photography? I shall link to these images as I am new and cannot post attachments. I suppose it is possible i edited the colors in the HC1 footage (it is fairly old), but how much can coloration do to add to quality? My Low Light Tests HC1 http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/c...DV/mintHC1.jpg EX3 http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/c...DV/mintEX3.jpg My Daylight Tests (Overcast days, both 720P converted from 25Mb 1080i footage) HC1 http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/c...intieA1HC1.jpg EX3 http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/c.../mintieEX3.jpg

February 8th, 2009, 06:02 AM	#3
Glynn Morgan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 119	Not canon, sony Not canon XH A1, the Sony HVR A1. Sorry, should have been clearer. Uhm, nah I chose the shots with the best focus for each screen grab, the HVR A1/HCR HC1 is known for poor quality in low light. I can't remember the settings for my EX3, but I was just messing about, I didn't think during the daylight i would have to worry about gain for a little test shoot. I had 0db, no ND filters - that's about all i can remember. Anyway, I'm looking for advice on decreasing grain on the EX3, when my HC1 seemed to do quite well during the day with its minimal customization. I'm a new EX3 owner you see, looking to learn :)

February 8th, 2009, 09:21 AM	#4
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	Try shooting P instead of I. Your stills will look much better and you'll capture slightly more light. __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

February 8th, 2009, 09:29 AM	#6
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	Okay, maybe I was wrong about the light (Perrone is much more of an expert with this camera than I) but it will certainly clear up the interlacing artifacts in your still photo examples. I seem to remember that 720P brought in more light than 1080P. I think I'm right about that. Turning the Shutter off also let's in quite a bit more light and personally, I like the look of it. __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

February 8th, 2009, 09:44 AM	#7
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Adam Wilt > Me! :) http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...tml#post828286 __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

February 8th, 2009, 05:13 AM	#2
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	On my uncorrected junk monitor the Canon looks out of focus inside (motion blur?) and the EX looks out of focus outside. The Ex also looks underexposed on the outside shot. What were your settings on the EX? Everything looks off.

February 8th, 2009, 09:53 AM	#8
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	Very interesting Perrone (as usual). I'm printing that off and sticking it in my camera case. It's taking every bit of will power I've got to not start shooting 1080i (instead of p). In many ways it would make things much easier for me. But so far I'm sticking with 1080P. __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

February 8th, 2009, 10:48 AM	#9
Erik Phairas Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 628	Yea but it looks like crap when you add gain at 720p or 1080i.. I always use 1080p with 6db when during night shoots. __________________ EX3, Q6600 Quad core PC - Vista 64, Vegas 8.1 64bit, SR11 b-cam

February 9th, 2009, 11:21 AM	#10
Glynn Morgan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 119	I shot SP 1080i because it was the same as the HC1 (for better comparison). By rights the same resolution should still show better image quality in the ex3? Any suggestions on how to make my image nice on overcast days?

February 9th, 2009, 11:59 AM	#11
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Glynn, If you shot the Ex-3 outside with no internal ND on you may have come across the dirty little secret of the EX glass. I assume its the same for the EX-3 and the EX-1. You don't ever want to close you iris even to f8. By that point you start to get softness due to diffraction the smaller iris. Its quite noticeable and surprising. That's one reason its a good idea to invest in extra ND and/or POLA glass for the front. By f11 your really in trouble on that camera.

February 9th, 2009, 12:57 PM	#12
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	In addition to Leonard's suggestion, I would play with your Picture Profile. Specifically the Matrix>Select: High SAT. This boosts the saturation which helps on gloomy days. Actually I think most people just leave this setting turned on. If you look in the Picture Profile thread on this forum, you'll find a bunch of additional information on this topic. __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

February 9th, 2009, 01:55 PM	#13
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	I have a HC1 as well as an EX1. The HC1 was an amazing consumer HD camera, one of the first and still holds it's own in certain situations, but I think one of the reasons for the lack of grain or noise you might be seeing is jut that the sensor resolution of the HC1 is quite a bit lower than the EX1 and whatever noise-processing the HC1 applies internally masks whatever noise is actually generated by the HC1. You might get less noise if you applied those same 'coring' anti-noise functions in the Picture Profiles that are available in the EX1, but I wouldn't do it, I'd wait until Post to do any anti-noise processing if I deemed it necessary. Also the comments about smaller IRIS settings are true, there is an aperture sweet spot on the EX1 and if you don't get that sweet spot you can get surprising fuzzy images. However when you get it all right the EX image is absolutely stunning, it just takes some time to know what to do and what not to do. The EX does have the capability to produce crappy images if you aren't careful, whereas the HC1 was designed to produce pleasing HD-like images with little fuss and if fact there isn't a whole lot you can do to modify what it wants to do.

February 9th, 2009, 09:11 PM	#14
Jeff DeMaagd Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Grand Rapids, MI, USA Posts: 202	I can't say much about the outdoor shots because the background is significantly different, and it looks like the white balance is pretty different too. Both cameras should be set to the same white balance to start out with. Without knowing more of the settings, it's hard to say much.

February 11th, 2009, 12:53 AM	#15
Glynn Morgan Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 119	Sorry about that, I think I switched to the wrong WB setting. Thanks for the input everyone. I have an EX3 though, not an EX1, but What would the sweet spot range be for the iris on the EX3? So i know when to use the ND filters. I just thought it was amazing how easy it was to get noise free imagery in the same enviroment on the HC1.