Filter for IR contamination

Leonard Levy · June 7th, 2009, 08:25 PM

spectral graphs for Canon and Nikon indicate no extended red response ( at least to my uneducated eyes) . So perhaps no fabric problems. Test your cameras at home folks.

Canon EOS Digital Rebel vs. Nikon D70 - Spectral Sensitivity

Ron Wilk · June 9th, 2009, 09:51 PM

I have noticed several posts suggesting that a "slim" filter is required when searching for an IR Blocker. Although the B&W 486 may not represent the best solution it appears to be the only current screw-in available, unless I have missed something in this thread. With that said, the standard, non-slim version fits just fine on my EX3. The lens shade fits over it and locks into place without any coaxing.

P.S. Please excuse the title's typo, it's getting late and there is no way to edit same.

Vincent Oliver · June 10th, 2009, 01:59 PM

What a lot of post's.

I have just been filming on the coast (UK) with the EX3 and I too noticed my black jacket turned brown. Having spent a small fortune on this camera and other bits to go with it, I am not going to spend any more money on IR filters. Maybe Doug Jensen can shed some light on this issue.

btw. I cured the black to brown problem by buying a dark blue jacket.

Piotr Wozniacki · June 10th, 2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver

btw. I cured the black to brown problem by buying a dark blue jacket.

You think you did, eh?

Dark blue is rendered as magenta under tungsten, for the very same reason black turns out maroon.

:)

Serena Steuart · June 10th, 2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver

I am not going to spend any more money on IR filters.
.

That's probably a good decision. Are you saying you'll never buy filters? The new Tiffen filter isn't designed to cut IR, but just that portion of far red that distorts the colour of some synthetic fibres (as I interpret the published test results).

Vincent Oliver · June 11th, 2009, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

You think you did, eh?

Dark blue is rendered as magenta under tungsten, for the very same reason black turns out maroon. :)

I am sure we could create a good musical on this topic, I must have a word with Joseph he also has a technicoloured dream coat

Derek Reich · June 12th, 2009, 07:36 AM

Here is Sony's response about the far red issue with the EX 1/3 and F35:
ProVideo Coalition.com: Stunning Good Looks by Art Adams | Cinematography

worth thinking about for those who intend to put an IR cut filter (or the new Tiffen color core) and just leave it on all the time.....

Piotr Wozniacki · June 12th, 2009, 08:36 AM

Yes - this would confirm my observations when testing the 486 filter, that (while getting rid of the long red contamination in blacks) the filter did adversely affect reds in general.

This, plus the green vignetting, made me give up the 486 solution. I'm planning now to purchase the 4x5.65" version of the new Tiffen filter, and only use it when needed.

Vincent Oliver · June 13th, 2009, 01:26 AM

I think Art Adams gives a fair answer to the problem. For me it is not a real issue, as I said I just replaced my black jacket with another colour. However, for the wedding guys it may be more of a problem. In my photographic experience over the last 38 years I have always had to compromise with one thing and another; barrel, pincushion distortions, colour balance on lenses, innaccurate shutter speeds, poor lab processing of films etc. I guess this red issueon the EX is another one to add to the list.

The creative person will always find a way arround any problem.

Max Allen · June 15th, 2009, 10:01 AM

It is not a bug, it is a feature?

Juan's response bears some logic. But, I'm not going to buy that so easily. In the EX cameras it is too pronounced. If the technology exists in the high end cameras to reduce the far red then you should find a way to have that in the EX. This should not be a "that's what you get for a 7k camera" answer. Things like red smearing and moire were obvious artifacts of all NTSC cameras. Far red is not an artifact of all HD cameras to the degree that it is with EX.

Serena Steuart · June 15th, 2009, 05:53 PM

Well I'm not sure that is reasonable. The F35 has similar characteristics and RED really does need a hot filter. Excessive red response isn't something I've found with the EX, but there are situations where additional filtering is needed. But isn't that so with all cameras? Certainly is shooting with film.

Anthony McErlean · June 17th, 2009, 12:54 PM

I was recording a wedding a few days ago with my EX3 and noticed part of the lapels of the grooms and best mens jackets were reddish brown but the rest of the jacket was OK.
(I forgot to screw the filter on at this stage)

Can anything be done to help fix the lapels.

Inside the church the jackets were perfect BTW.

Thanks in advance.

Brian Cassar · June 17th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Anthony I've seen it too - that's because the lapels are usually of a different fabric and usually are shiny. I have now got into the habit of keeping the filter in my jacket pocket - when one of the inner family male member appears in front of me I zoom on the jacket and have a close look. At the first sight of any brown tint, I'll just screw on the filter and keep it there. I have now realized that the green vignette is so small that I'm sure the couple and their families will not notice it.

It is much easier for them to spot the colour difference between the lapel and the jacket.

Frankly when I did not have the filter, I never bothered to correct this issue - as I doubt whether it is possible without affecting the rest of the picture. If someone complains or comment, you can always say that the fabric of the lapel reflected back the halogen light and produced such a brown tint.

Anthony McErlean · June 17th, 2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Cassar

If someone complains or comment, you can always say that the fabric of the lapel reflected back the halogen light and produced such a brown tint.

Thanks Brian, a good tip, I'll keep that in mind.

I didn't think anything could be done about it, yes, the lapel does appear to be made of a different material and it does look shiny.

Once I screw the filter on everything was fine, pity I didn't catch on a bit earlier. I'll know for again.

Thanks Brian.

Brian Cassar · June 17th, 2009, 01:52 PM

Anthony, with regards to this IR issue or far-red or call it what you want issue and weddings, I've observed the following:

- for evening weddings, almost every black rental suits for the groom and his male relatives ends up with this problem unless corrected by the 486 filter (as long as the indoor venue has halogen / tungsten light)

- for morning weddings this is rarely a problem since most rental suits are greyish rather than black. If however a black suit is rented than due to the intensity of the sunlight, you may find that you have to use the 486.

- I tend to anticipate in advance the probability of running into this problem and decide before getting out of home whether to attach the filter or not. For example, whenever the venue is indoors such as a hotel, I know for sure that the venue will be entirely lit with a multitude of halogen lamps, so the filter goes on. However we do have some venues which are horribly lit with energy saving lamps - these venues have now become my favourite as I do not use the filter at all. I'm applying the same principle for churches.

June 9th, 2009, 09:51 PM	#212
Ron Wilk Major Player Join Date: May 2009 Location: Parkland Florida Posts: 407	B&e 486 I have noticed several posts suggesting that a "slim" filter is required when searching for an IR Blocker. Although the B&W 486 may not represent the best solution it appears to be the only current screw-in available, unless I have missed something in this thread. With that said, the standard, non-slim version fits just fine on my EX3. The lens shade fits over it and locks into place without any coaxing. P.S. Please excuse the title's typo, it's getting late and there is no way to edit same.

June 10th, 2009, 01:59 PM	#213
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	What a lot of post's. I have just been filming on the coast (UK) with the EX3 and I too noticed my black jacket turned brown. Having spent a small fortune on this camera and other bits to go with it, I am not going to spend any more money on IR filters. Maybe Doug Jensen can shed some light on this issue. btw. I cured the black to brown problem by buying a dark blue jacket. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

June 12th, 2009, 07:36 AM	#217
Derek Reich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Washoe Valley, NV Posts: 304	Interesting explanation from Sony Here is Sony's response about the far red issue with the EX 1/3 and F35: ProVideo Coalition.com: Stunning Good Looks by Art Adams \| Cinematography worth thinking about for those who intend to put an IR cut filter (or the new Tiffen color core) and just leave it on all the time..... __________________ www.zooprax.com

June 12th, 2009, 08:36 AM	#218
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Yes - this would confirm my observations when testing the 486 filter, that (while getting rid of the long red contamination in blacks) the filter did adversely affect reds in general. This, plus the green vignetting, made me give up the 486 solution. I'm planning now to purchase the 4x5.65" version of the new Tiffen filter, and only use it when needed. __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

June 13th, 2009, 01:26 AM	#219
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	I think Art Adams gives a fair answer to the problem. For me it is not a real issue, as I said I just replaced my black jacket with another colour. However, for the wedding guys it may be more of a problem. In my photographic experience over the last 38 years I have always had to compromise with one thing and another; barrel, pincushion distortions, colour balance on lenses, innaccurate shutter speeds, poor lab processing of films etc. I guess this red issueon the EX is another one to add to the list. The creative person will always find a way arround any problem. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

June 7th, 2009, 08:25 PM	#211
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	spectral graphs for Canon and Nikon indicate no extended red response ( at least to my uneducated eyes) . So perhaps no fabric problems. Test your cameras at home folks. Canon EOS Digital Rebel vs. Nikon D70 - Spectral Sensitivity

June 15th, 2009, 10:01 AM	#220
Max Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NY Posts: 186	It is not a bug, it is a feature? Juan's response bears some logic. But, I'm not going to buy that so easily. In the EX cameras it is too pronounced. If the technology exists in the high end cameras to reduce the far red then you should find a way to have that in the EX. This should not be a "that's what you get for a 7k camera" answer. Things like red smearing and moire were obvious artifacts of all NTSC cameras. Far red is not an artifact of all HD cameras to the degree that it is with EX.

June 15th, 2009, 05:53 PM	#221
Serena Steuart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Studio Alnitak, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 640 Images: 3	Well I'm not sure that is reasonable. The F35 has similar characteristics and RED really does need a hot filter. Excessive red response isn't something I've found with the EX, but there are situations where additional filtering is needed. But isn't that so with all cameras? Certainly is shooting with film.

June 17th, 2009, 12:54 PM	#222
Anthony McErlean Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,081	Jacket lapels are reddish brown. I was recording a wedding a few days ago with my EX3 and noticed part of the lapels of the grooms and best mens jackets were reddish brown but the rest of the jacket was OK. (I forgot to screw the filter on at this stage) Can anything be done to help fix the lapels. Inside the church the jackets were perfect BTW. Thanks in advance.

June 17th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#223
Brian Cassar Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Malta Posts: 306	Anthony I've seen it too - that's because the lapels are usually of a different fabric and usually are shiny. I have now got into the habit of keeping the filter in my jacket pocket - when one of the inner family male member appears in front of me I zoom on the jacket and have a close look. At the first sight of any brown tint, I'll just screw on the filter and keep it there. I have now realized that the green vignette is so small that I'm sure the couple and their families will not notice it. It is much easier for them to spot the colour difference between the lapel and the jacket. Frankly when I did not have the filter, I never bothered to correct this issue - as I doubt whether it is possible without affecting the rest of the picture. If someone complains or comment, you can always say that the fabric of the lapel reflected back the halogen light and produced such a brown tint.

June 17th, 2009, 01:52 PM	#225
Brian Cassar Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Malta Posts: 306	Anthony, with regards to this IR issue or far-red or call it what you want issue and weddings, I've observed the following: - for evening weddings, almost every black rental suits for the groom and his male relatives ends up with this problem unless corrected by the 486 filter (as long as the indoor venue has halogen / tungsten light) - for morning weddings this is rarely a problem since most rental suits are greyish rather than black. If however a black suit is rented than due to the intensity of the sunlight, you may find that you have to use the 486. - I tend to anticipate in advance the probability of running into this problem and decide before getting out of home whether to attach the filter or not. For example, whenever the venue is indoors such as a hotel, I know for sure that the venue will be entirely lit with a multitude of halogen lamps, so the filter goes on. However we do have some venues which are horribly lit with energy saving lamps - these venues have now become my favourite as I do not use the filter at all. I'm applying the same principle for churches.