Filter for IR contamination

Derek Reich · April 5th, 2009, 10:04 AM

Here are the rest of the grabs, and examples of the vignette

Brian Cassar · April 5th, 2009, 10:34 AM

I would like to comment on the green vignette issue. I too did a similar test like Derek and pointed the camera to a white wall. The vignette is alarming when observed in this way BUT in the real world, unless you are not filming a very pale plain background, the vignette is much less visible. I'm not saying it does not exist but it might be very easily missed by the client especially in event videos where the shots are usually short and change frequently and the shot consists of other eye catching moving images.

Also remember that if the resultant footage is seen on 40" or bigger screens, the eye will have to travel from the centre to the edge of the screen to really notice the vignette.

I'm not happy with the outcome but in the absence of any real alternative and in view of the horrible blacks being produced by the EX series, I must say that the 486 / True cut 680 is a must have for the time being for any EX camera owner.

Dave Morrison · April 5th, 2009, 07:09 PM

I just picked up a 680 and have yet to do any tests, but it would have been SO nice for Sony to admit that their camera has a problem with IR and offer this filter to the folks who b**ch loud and long enough. I'm sure they would work out some sort of large purchase deal with Schneider/B&W to make this happen. I know it wouldn't make everybody happy, but it sure would have taken the sting out of having to pay almost $300 for one of the little buggers.

Derek Reich · April 7th, 2009, 09:28 AM

Good news from Ryan Avery at Schneider. The Tru Cut 680 will be marketed as a solution for the IR issue with the EX cameras making it much easier for the filter to be obtained.

Schneider acknowledges that at full wide there will be a green/cyan vignette, but as many have found this is just not that noticeable unless against a light neutral background, and I have found zooming in to just 15mm will make it completely disappear. I personally feel the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta anyway, and this filter only needs to be used when the IR issue is present. It is not a filter to leave on the camera all the time.

I also noticed I neglected to add one of my frame grabs.... the 6300K no ND with 680. Somehow I missed that grab, but the 680 worked perfectly in that shot as it did with all the others. (who'd want to shoot at f16 with an EX anyway?)

This filter really does the trick..... and no need for multiple filters to have to deal with it. No light loss either.

it's nice to be back in the black.

Piotr Wozniacki · April 7th, 2009, 09:35 AM

Thanks Derek.

I personally do NOT agree that "the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta" - not under some circumstances, like a multi-camera shoots (that's why I sold away my 486 filter).

But at least we now know for sure what the current situation is.

Derek Reich · April 7th, 2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Thanks Derek.

I personally do NOT agree that "the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta" - not under some circumstances, like a multi-camera shoots (that's why I sold away my 486 filter).

But at least we now know for sure what the current situation is.

Hi, Piotr-
I can see where this would be a problem for you with muliti-cam shoots.... the only solution there would be if all the cameras were EXs and all using the 680.

I did notice that the vignette all but disappeared when zooming in to as little as 15mm. If you stay zoomed in somewhat, it should not be too much of an issue, but of course then you're limited in your framing.

Nothing's ever easy, is it?
good luck-

Ed Kukla · April 7th, 2009, 10:13 AM

Zooming in to 15mm is a good solution?????????????????

I own the W/A lens for the EX-3. It's wide end is 4mm. No way will I consider the green cast acceptable. Maybe that works for wedding videos but not for the clients I serve in broadcast, commercials and corporate.

Derek Reich · April 7th, 2009, 12:09 PM

As I have repeatedly said..... none of the solutions are perfect. I'm happy with the filter, but realize it's limitations. If I need something to be black that is not due to the IR contamination, at least I know I can resolve it. It remains to be seen how much the green cast will be a problem, but I know I can get around that, too if I sacrifice going too wide.

I think with this issue, it's all about compromises. At least until Sony figures a way to resolve it.

Leonard Levy · April 7th, 2009, 01:33 PM

Is the 486 the same filter as the True cut 680?

Giroud Francois · April 7th, 2009, 02:06 PM

yes one is the name for the square 4x4 filter , the other for the round one

Leonard Levy · April 7th, 2009, 02:23 PM

I just got off the phone with Tiffen and spent a bunch of time talking to Art Adams. As far as I can see there has not been a good reason Tiffen didn't make the IRND filter without ND . They thought this was a specific problem relating to ND issues and they didn't realize that the EX-1 behaved differently from other cameras. They thought it was the same as the Red.

The upshot is they said they will try to make a version of the IRND filter that eliminates the ND part , so it will be a yellowish green filter that you will need to white balance through

Cross your fingers, hopefully we'll know about this within a month.

Lenny Levy

Ed Kukla · April 7th, 2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard Levy

I just got off the phone with Tiffen and spent a bunch of time talking to Art Adams. As far as I can see there has not been a good reason Tiffen didn't make the IRND filter without ND . They thought this was a specific problem relating to ND issues and they didn't realize that the EX-1 behaved differently from other cameras. They thought it was the same as the Red.

The upshot is they said they will try to make a version of the IRND filter that eliminates the ND part , so it will be a yellowish green filter that you will need to white balance through

Cross your fingers, hopefully we'll know about this within a month.

Lenny Levy

Excellent. Please keep us posted.

Thanks

Dean Sensui · April 7th, 2009, 06:38 PM

Since I grade all my shots in Apple's Color, it's not a major deal to create and apply a color-correction vignette during post to deal with the green vignette problem.

Of course it would be best if we didn't have to compensate at all. But if getting good blacks throughout is of primary importance, then such workarounds may have to be tolerated for now.

In my own case, it's a toss-up. If I do get a filter, it means I have to get a larger mattebox since the mattebox I have now won't fit around Sony's 0.8x WA adapter. And I'd have to get a filter for both cameras.

Ryan Avery · April 8th, 2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard Levy

Is the 486 the same filter as the True cut 680?

The 486 and the Tru-Cut 680 are manufactured with similar processes and are designed to create the same cut rate. Both cut around 680nm so the effect is the same on the Sony EX cameras.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Paul Newman · April 8th, 2009, 11:11 AM

Here's a horrible example of how the EX1 behaves with standard lens and how a 486 instantly fixes a very nasty problem.

The materials which really suffer are man-made "silk look" products, the lapels on the male singer, but mostly the conductor whose shirt was black, as well as various other parts of suits and dresses.

Paul

April 5th, 2009, 10:04 AM	#151
Derek Reich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Washoe Valley, NV Posts: 304	680 frame grabs part 2 Here are the rest of the grabs, and examples of the vignette Attached Thumbnails __________________ www.zooprax.com

April 5th, 2009, 07:09 PM	#153
Dave Morrison Major Player Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 762	I just picked up a 680 and have yet to do any tests, but it would have been SO nice for Sony to admit that their camera has a problem with IR and offer this filter to the folks who b**ch loud and long enough. I'm sure they would work out some sort of large purchase deal with Schneider/B&W to make this happen. I know it wouldn't make everybody happy, but it sure would have taken the sting out of having to pay almost $300 for one of the little buggers. __________________ EX1, Nikon D750 http://www.morrisonphotographics.com http://www.heritagefilm.com

April 7th, 2009, 09:28 AM	#154
Derek Reich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Washoe Valley, NV Posts: 304	Black Is Back Good news from Ryan Avery at Schneider. The Tru Cut 680 will be marketed as a solution for the IR issue with the EX cameras making it much easier for the filter to be obtained. Schneider acknowledges that at full wide there will be a green/cyan vignette, but as many have found this is just not that noticeable unless against a light neutral background, and I have found zooming in to just 15mm will make it completely disappear. I personally feel the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta anyway, and this filter only needs to be used when the IR issue is present. It is not a filter to leave on the camera all the time. I also noticed I neglected to add one of my frame grabs.... the 6300K no ND with 680. Somehow I missed that grab, but the 680 worked perfectly in that shot as it did with all the others. (who'd want to shoot at f16 with an EX anyway?) This filter really does the trick..... and no need for multiple filters to have to deal with it. No light loss either. it's nice to be back in the black. __________________ www.zooprax.com

April 7th, 2009, 09:35 AM	#155
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Thanks Derek. I personally do NOT agree that "the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta" - not under some circumstances, like a multi-camera shoots (that's why I sold away my 486 filter). But at least we now know for sure what the current situation is. __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

April 7th, 2009, 10:13 AM	#157
Ed Kukla Major Player Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: All over, USA Posts: 512	totally unacceptable Zooming in to 15mm is a good solution????????????????? I own the W/A lens for the EX-3. It's wide end is 4mm. No way will I consider the green cast acceptable. Maybe that works for wedding videos but not for the clients I serve in broadcast, commercials and corporate.

April 5th, 2009, 10:34 AM	#152
Brian Cassar Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Malta Posts: 306	I would like to comment on the green vignette issue. I too did a similar test like Derek and pointed the camera to a white wall. The vignette is alarming when observed in this way BUT in the real world, unless you are not filming a very pale plain background, the vignette is much less visible. I'm not saying it does not exist but it might be very easily missed by the client especially in event videos where the shots are usually short and change frequently and the shot consists of other eye catching moving images. Also remember that if the resultant footage is seen on 40" or bigger screens, the eye will have to travel from the centre to the edge of the screen to really notice the vignette. I'm not happy with the outcome but in the absence of any real alternative and in view of the horrible blacks being produced by the EX series, I must say that the 486 / True cut 680 is a must have for the time being for any EX camera owner.

April 7th, 2009, 12:09 PM	#158
Derek Reich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Washoe Valley, NV Posts: 304	As I have repeatedly said..... none of the solutions are perfect. I'm happy with the filter, but realize it's limitations. If I need something to be black that is not due to the IR contamination, at least I know I can resolve it. It remains to be seen how much the green cast will be a problem, but I know I can get around that, too if I sacrifice going too wide. I think with this issue, it's all about compromises. At least until Sony figures a way to resolve it. __________________ www.zooprax.com

April 7th, 2009, 01:33 PM	#159
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	Is the 486 the same filter as the True cut 680?

April 7th, 2009, 02:06 PM	#160
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	yes one is the name for the square 4x4 filter , the other for the round one

April 7th, 2009, 02:23 PM	#161
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	I just got off the phone with Tiffen and spent a bunch of time talking to Art Adams. As far as I can see there has not been a good reason Tiffen didn't make the IRND filter without ND . They thought this was a specific problem relating to ND issues and they didn't realize that the EX-1 behaved differently from other cameras. They thought it was the same as the Red. The upshot is they said they will try to make a version of the IRND filter that eliminates the ND part , so it will be a yellowish green filter that you will need to white balance through Cross your fingers, hopefully we'll know about this within a month. Lenny Levy

April 7th, 2009, 06:38 PM	#163
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Since I grade all my shots in Apple's Color, it's not a major deal to create and apply a color-correction vignette during post to deal with the green vignette problem. Of course it would be best if we didn't have to compensate at all. But if getting good blacks throughout is of primary importance, then such workarounds may have to be tolerated for now. In my own case, it's a toss-up. If I do get a filter, it means I have to get a larger mattebox since the mattebox I have now won't fit around Sony's 0.8x WA adapter. And I'd have to get a filter for both cameras. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

April 8th, 2009, 11:11 AM	#165
Paul Newman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Agua Blanca Ibiza Posts: 305	Here's a horrible example of how the EX1 behaves with standard lens and how a 486 instantly fixes a very nasty problem. The materials which really suffer are man-made "silk look" products, the lapels on the male singer, but mostly the conductor whose shirt was black, as well as various other parts of suits and dresses. Paul Attached Thumbnails __________________ Another Sunny Day in Ibiza