720p to 1080i for Avid Adrenaline HDCAM Output at DVinfo.net

Steve Gibbons · January 23rd, 2009, 03:50 PM

A question for Avid Adrenaline/HDCAM/EX1 folks...

We have some footage shot with our EX1 using the 720p S&Q mode. The Sony Clip Browser re-wraps it into something our Avid Adrenaline likes. However, when we attempt to output to our HDCAM deck, the video is all "strobe like". We are attributing this to the footage not being 1080i which is what the deck wants.

Question - the 'Export to XDCAM422 option' in the Sony Clip Browser appears to transcode 1280x720p video to 1920x1080i as long as the native framerate is 29.97. Should this make our HDCAM deck happy?

Rob Collins · January 23rd, 2009, 06:17 PM

I don't know, am not an Avid user, but am interested in this for a dub next week that seems related.

I'm delivering some commercials to a local station that's just started broadcasting local HD. They can accept HDCAM or can go straight into their Avid (I assume Adrenaline?). My plan is to put the edited commercials back onto SxS and play out through the EX1's SDI into their Avid or HDCAM deck. I'm editng in FCP 730/30p uncompressed, but the XDCAM export allows transcoding to any EX format to put back to SxS. Should I choose 1080i to avoid the strobing Steve's experiencing?

Steve, you didn't mention your frame rate for your slow motion--24, 25, or 30p?

Steve Gibbons · January 24th, 2009, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Collins

I don't know, am not an Avid user, but am interested in this for a dub next week that seems related.

I'm delivering some commercials to a local station that's just started broadcasting local HD. They can accept HDCAM or can go straight into their Avid (I assume Adrenaline?). My plan is to put the edited commercials back onto SxS and play out through the EX1's SDI into their Avid or HDCAM deck. I'm editng in FCP 730/30p uncompressed, but the XDCAM export allows transcoding to any EX format to put back to SxS. Should I choose 1080i to avoid the strobing Steve's experiencing?

Steve, you didn't mention your frame rate for your slow motion--24, 25, or 30p?

Our freelance cameraman shot S&Q 720p @ both 24fps and 30fps for this particular shoot.

It's worth mentioning if you weren't already aware that the 'Export to MXF XDCAMHD422' requires a $400 plug-in for the Sony Clip Browser. It only has a watermarked demo export plug-in when you download it. It also appears to only handle 30p video not 24. I understand there are alternatives to this MainConcept plugin though.

SG

Rob Collins · January 24th, 2009, 09:15 AM

I sort of hijacked what you were asking, sorry. Though maybe what I'm doing could be an alternative workflow for you? You'd need FCP I think though. I'm not using the Clip Browser plugin--I'm using "export Sony XDCAM" in FCP which comes through XDCAM Transfer. That allows creation of an MP4 file--in any EX format--that can be put back to SxS. So I'm wondering if you could transcode your footage this way and bring into Avid via SDI?

In my scenario, I'll transcode to both 720/30p and 1080i and report back if one is better when it comes to going into Avid and/or HDCAM deck.

Mitchell Lewis · January 24th, 2009, 10:05 AM

Converting from progressive to interlaced is one of the most difficult things there is to do when transcoding.

So far the only way I've figured out how to do it is using Adobe AfterEffects. They have a very good solution that splits the progressive frame into 2 fields, and then you can select which field you want to be dominate (lower or upper). Here's the link to where I describe the process of going from 1080 30p to 480i (standard DV). Should be the same work flow for what you are doing.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/997394-post164.html

1. Create a new project in AfterEffects
2. Load all your progressive footage into the project
3. One by one, select each piece of video used in the project and type "Apple-F" to Interpret the footage.
4. Change the Separate Fields to "Lower" for each piece of footage used in the project (DV footage is always lower field dominant, I think 1080i is upper field dominant)
5. Create a new Composition (Comp #1) that is the exact size of your footage (the size that you shot it)
6. Create another new Composition (Comp #2) that's the size of the format you want to convert to. In my case I chose standard DV (720x480 with non-square pixels, you'll choose 1080i).
7. Drop Comp #1 into Comp #2 and resize it to fit
8. Render using using the codec your converting to (in my case I chose standard DV settings - 720x480, DV codec, Lower Field First, etc...)

This should work pretty well. My only concern would be that you're scaling UP from 720 to 1080. You might get some artifacts doing that. Maybe try adding some blur or sharpening to it and see if that helps. I've only scaled down (1080 to 480) so I don't have any first hand experience with this.

Steve Gibbons · January 24th, 2009, 11:32 AM

Thanks for the replies folks...

To bring this full circle again though, will the built-in Sony Clip Browser export options properly transcode 720p to 1080i? Has anyone tested this and confirmed?

If not, we will try the After Effects workflow mentioned above.

SG

Rob Collins · January 31st, 2009, 09:56 AM

I don't know, but I started a new thread with my results using XDCAM export (part of XDCAM transfer): http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...m-via-sxs.html

Craig Seeman · January 31st, 2009, 10:17 AM

ClipBrowser can rewrap the BPAV/MP4 to MXF for NLE.
You need to know what your HDCAM deck needs.
It can handle more than you think.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...AM_Studio.html

1080: 59.94i 29.97PsF, 50i, 25PsF, 24PsF, 23.98PsF

If you need to change frame rates or move between interlace and progressive certainly some NLEs can handle this as well as tools such as Compressor (with Final Cut Pro) or Episode Desktop (both Mac and Windows and works fine with Avid).

If your work is destined for broadcast they're 720p60 or 1080i60 (at least here in USA).
Overcrank is 24p or 30p. It looks like somewhere you need to do frame rate conversion. The above programs will do that (no need for After Effects but you can do it there if you like).

Steve Gibbons · January 31st, 2009, 11:19 AM

A quick follow-up on what we did.

Using the 'Export to XDCAMHD 422' option in the Sony Clip Browser did in fact work for converting 30fps S&Q mode 720p footage to 1080i. While the Avid liked it, we ran into a problem outputting it to the HDCAM deck. We couldn't get a machine controlled output working so we simply crash recorded onto an HDCAM tape deck and ran the video manually out of the Avid.

January 24th, 2009, 10:05 AM	#5
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	Converting from progressive to interlaced is one of the most difficult things there is to do when transcoding. So far the only way I've figured out how to do it is using Adobe AfterEffects. They have a very good solution that splits the progressive frame into 2 fields, and then you can select which field you want to be dominate (lower or upper). Here's the link to where I describe the process of going from 1080 30p to 480i (standard DV). Should be the same work flow for what you are doing. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/997394-post164.html 1. Create a new project in AfterEffects 2. Load all your progressive footage into the project 3. One by one, select each piece of video used in the project and type "Apple-F" to Interpret the footage. 4. Change the Separate Fields to "Lower" for each piece of footage used in the project (DV footage is always lower field dominant, I think 1080i is upper field dominant) 5. Create a new Composition (Comp #1) that is the exact size of your footage (the size that you shot it) 6. Create another new Composition (Comp #2) that's the size of the format you want to convert to. In my case I chose standard DV (720x480 with non-square pixels, you'll choose 1080i). 7. Drop Comp #1 into Comp #2 and resize it to fit 8. Render using using the codec your converting to (in my case I chose standard DV settings - 720x480, DV codec, Lower Field First, etc...) This should work pretty well. My only concern would be that you're scaling UP from 720 to 1080. You might get some artifacts doing that. Maybe try adding some blur or sharpening to it and see if that helps. I've only scaled down (1080 to 480) so I don't have any first hand experience with this. __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

January 23rd, 2009, 03:50 PM	#1
Steve Gibbons Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgenorth Posts: 116	720p to 1080i for Avid Adrenaline HDCAM Output A question for Avid Adrenaline/HDCAM/EX1 folks... We have some footage shot with our EX1 using the 720p S&Q mode. The Sony Clip Browser re-wraps it into something our Avid Adrenaline likes. However, when we attempt to output to our HDCAM deck, the video is all "strobe like". We are attributing this to the footage not being 1080i which is what the deck wants. Question - the 'Export to XDCAM422 option' in the Sony Clip Browser appears to transcode 1280x720p video to 1920x1080i as long as the native framerate is 29.97. Should this make our HDCAM deck happy?

January 23rd, 2009, 06:17 PM	#2
Rob Collins Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 229	I don't know, am not an Avid user, but am interested in this for a dub next week that seems related. I'm delivering some commercials to a local station that's just started broadcasting local HD. They can accept HDCAM or can go straight into their Avid (I assume Adrenaline?). My plan is to put the edited commercials back onto SxS and play out through the EX1's SDI into their Avid or HDCAM deck. I'm editng in FCP 730/30p uncompressed, but the XDCAM export allows transcoding to any EX format to put back to SxS. Should I choose 1080i to avoid the strobing Steve's experiencing? Steve, you didn't mention your frame rate for your slow motion--24, 25, or 30p?

January 24th, 2009, 09:15 AM	#4
Rob Collins Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 229	I sort of hijacked what you were asking, sorry. Though maybe what I'm doing could be an alternative workflow for you? You'd need FCP I think though. I'm not using the Clip Browser plugin--I'm using "export Sony XDCAM" in FCP which comes through XDCAM Transfer. That allows creation of an MP4 file--in any EX format--that can be put back to SxS. So I'm wondering if you could transcode your footage this way and bring into Avid via SDI? In my scenario, I'll transcode to both 720/30p and 1080i and report back if one is better when it comes to going into Avid and/or HDCAM deck.

January 24th, 2009, 11:32 AM	#6
Steve Gibbons Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgenorth Posts: 116	Thanks for the replies folks... To bring this full circle again though, will the built-in Sony Clip Browser export options properly transcode 720p to 1080i? Has anyone tested this and confirmed? If not, we will try the After Effects workflow mentioned above. SG

January 31st, 2009, 09:56 AM	#7
Rob Collins Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 229	I don't know, but I started a new thread with my results using XDCAM export (part of XDCAM transfer): http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...m-via-sxs.html

January 31st, 2009, 10:17 AM	#8
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	ClipBrowser can rewrap the BPAV/MP4 to MXF for NLE. You need to know what your HDCAM deck needs. It can handle more than you think. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...AM_Studio.html 1080: 59.94i 29.97PsF, 50i, 25PsF, 24PsF, 23.98PsF If you need to change frame rates or move between interlace and progressive certainly some NLEs can handle this as well as tools such as Compressor (with Final Cut Pro) or Episode Desktop (both Mac and Windows and works fine with Avid). If your work is destined for broadcast they're 720p60 or 1080i60 (at least here in USA). Overcrank is 24p or 30p. It looks like somewhere you need to do frame rate conversion. The above programs will do that (no need for After Effects but you can do it there if you like).

January 31st, 2009, 11:19 AM	#9
Steve Gibbons Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bridgenorth Posts: 116	A quick follow-up on what we did. Using the 'Export to XDCAMHD 422' option in the Sony Clip Browser did in fact work for converting 30fps S&Q mode 720p footage to 1080i. While the Avid liked it, we ran into a problem outputting it to the HDCAM deck. We couldn't get a machine controlled output working so we simply crash recorded onto an HDCAM tape deck and ran the video manually out of the Avid.