Adding Motion Blur to Progressive Footage at DVinfo.net

Kevin Wayne Jones · January 13th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Could someone give me a simple rule of thumb for adding a little motion blur to my progressive footage?
I'm trying to smooth-out the flutter look it yields during on-screen movement.
The footage looks fine on a progressive monitor but flutters on my interlaced monitor.
So I'm experimention with adding some motion blur. VERY process intensive.
Hoping to learn from someone else's experience.

Thank You.

Kevin Jones

Noah Kadner · January 13th, 2009, 01:12 PM

Hmm- I think that's going to be ultimately counterproductive. There's not really a proper formula for correcting progressive footage by adding motion blur because it's kind of a subjective call that such a thing is necessary. Much better to take as a lesson for the next time you shoot to carefully consider frame rate and shutter speed so you get the sort of look you're personally after. Also- what do you mean by flutter- that also a subjective term. What is the footage doing that you don't like?

-Noah

Kevin Wayne Jones · January 13th, 2009, 01:24 PM

I believe you are right about adding motion blur.
After a little experimenting it is not practical.

This particular footage was shot 1080p 30p with a shutter speed of 1/60.
Normally I shoot 1080i. Progressive has a different look.
It's only noticeable on my analog interlaced old technology monitor.
The fluttering I mention is very subtle and probably no one would notice it but me.
It's particularly noticeable during scenes of on-screen movement.
In my case hands gesturing by the on screen talent.

Thanks.

Kevin Jones

Craig Seeman · January 13th, 2009, 02:25 PM

Kevin, I know exactly what you mean. I'm sensitive to it too. I think there may be very slight difference in people's "persistence of vision" and how people react to it aesthetically as well. 24p drives me nuts for that reason.

Sometimes I find shutting 1080p30 with shutter off (which is 1/30) instead of 1/60 helps immensely. It's really an aesthetic decision though.

Another alternative is to shoot 720p60 which has greater temporal resolution. Again it's a different look but those are avenues worth exploring.

Paul Frederick · January 13th, 2009, 02:46 PM

If what you mean by flutter is a strobing look to the footage then I agree it can be distracting. I also shoot with shutter off to smooth things out. To me it looks smoother and even more like film. YMMV but you should give it a try. Plus you gain a stop of light by shutting it off.

Kevin Wayne Jones · January 13th, 2009, 04:37 PM

I like the idea of "shutter OFF". I will try that tomorrow.

Thanks for the input!

Kevin Jones

Noah Kadner · January 13th, 2009, 08:10 PM

FYI- 'shutter off' is simply matching the shutter speed to frame rate. So 30p = 1/30, 24p = 1/24, etc. I personally don't like the look at all- it's too smeary and video like to my eyes. I much prefer a 1/48 or 1/60 for 24p and don't like 30p at all because it looks too much like a cross between video and film look- sort of a halfway there format. Anyways- the point is that this stuff is subjective. :)

-Noah

Mitchell Lewis · January 13th, 2009, 09:22 PM

Probably a dumb question but......how the heck can you turn the shutter on and off? The display in my viewfinder says at the bottom: SHT: Off

I can't for the life of me figure out how to turn it back on.

I also notice that TLCS is set to STD. I don't want to ever use TLCS. I think it's off....right?

(sorry if these are stupid questions)

David Issko · January 13th, 2009, 09:26 PM

I just shot a doco over 12 days using 1080 25p with shutter OFF. The only difference I found (with some tests) between shutter off and 1/50 was a loss of light for the same iris setting. The footage is great.

Unless I am looking for a particular visual effect - for example the strobing look at high shutter rates - all of my future 25p will be shot with the shutter off.

David Issko · January 13th, 2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchell Lewis

Probably a dumb question but......how the heck can you turn the shutter on and off? The display in my viewfinder says at the bottom: SHT: Off

I can't for the life of me figure out how to turn it back on.

I also notice that TLCS is set to STD. I don't want to ever use TLCS. I think it's off....right?

(sorry if these are stupid questions)

You need to get into the menu settings of the camera, which gives you shutter speed (and angle) choices.

Andrew Stone · January 14th, 2009, 01:16 AM

David I think Mitchell is referring to what should be the "shutter" switch that is smack below the lens mount between the white balance and the Assign 4 button.

I know I got tripped up on this when I first got the camera. I know it's been said before but placing the white balance and shutter on/off switch under the lens mount was a usability blunder.

Paul Frederick · January 14th, 2009, 08:50 AM

Agreed! I swear at the white balance location everytime I try and hold out a white sheet with my left hand, then reach around my tripod to the front under the lens with my right to hit the WB button. It's in the worst possible location.

The shutter switch is even further over than the WB switch and Assign 4? Forget it!! Further still!!!

Kevin Wayne Jones · January 14th, 2009, 03:41 PM

Shot some outdoor footage of municipal workers today.
Shot 1080p with the shutter turned off.
Very nice look. The shutter in the "off" position introduces just enough motion blur to smooth out the flutter I was seeing with the shutter set to 1/60.
Also shot repeat shots of same activity set to 1080i 1/60 to compare.
Looked similar but introduced interlacing artifacts.
Thanks for the shutter OFF tip.

Kevin Jones

Mitchell Lewis · January 14th, 2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Stone

David I think Mitchell is referring to what should be the "shutter" switch that is smack below the lens mount between the white balance and the Assign 4 button.

I know I got tripped up on this when I first got the camera. I know it's been said before but placing the white balance and shutter on/off switch under the lens mount was a usability blunder.

BINGO!!!! Thank you Andy! I didn't even notice that button under the lens.

Now....to continue to shoot without the shutter or try shooting this next commercial (an important one) with the shutter on and set to 1/60th. Hmmmmm....

January 13th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#1
Kevin Wayne Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Tuscaloosa, Alabama Posts: 69	Adding Motion Blur to Progressive Footage Could someone give me a simple rule of thumb for adding a little motion blur to my progressive footage? I'm trying to smooth-out the flutter look it yields during on-screen movement. The footage looks fine on a progressive monitor but flutters on my interlaced monitor. So I'm experimention with adding some motion blur. VERY process intensive. Hoping to learn from someone else's experience. Thank You. Kevin Jones

January 13th, 2009, 02:46 PM	#5
Paul Frederick Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: WestChazy, NY Posts: 291	If what you mean by flutter is a strobing look to the footage then I agree it can be distracting. I also shoot with shutter off to smooth things out. To me it looks smoother and even more like film. YMMV but you should give it a try. Plus you gain a stop of light by shutting it off. __________________ www.paulfrederickproductions.com

January 13th, 2009, 09:22 PM	#8
Mitchell Lewis Trustee Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 1,124	Probably a dumb question but......how the heck can you turn the shutter on and off? The display in my viewfinder says at the bottom: SHT: Off I can't for the life of me figure out how to turn it back on. I also notice that TLCS is set to STD. I don't want to ever use TLCS. I think it's off....right? (sorry if these are stupid questions) __________________ Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor

January 13th, 2009, 09:26 PM	#9
David Issko Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 393	I just shot a doco over 12 days using 1080 25p with shutter OFF. The only difference I found (with some tests) between shutter off and 1/50 was a loss of light for the same iris setting. The footage is great. Unless I am looking for a particular visual effect - for example the strobing look at high shutter rates - all of my future 25p will be shot with the shutter off. __________________ David Issko Edit 1 Video Productions

January 14th, 2009, 08:50 AM	#12
Paul Frederick Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: WestChazy, NY Posts: 291	Agreed! I swear at the white balance location everytime I try and hold out a white sheet with my left hand, then reach around my tripod to the front under the lens with my right to hit the WB button. It's in the worst possible location. The shutter switch is even further over than the WB switch and Assign 4? Forget it!! Further still!!! __________________ www.paulfrederickproductions.com

January 13th, 2009, 01:12 PM	#2
Noah Kadner Better than Halle Berry Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 435	Hmm- I think that's going to be ultimately counterproductive. There's not really a proper formula for correcting progressive footage by adding motion blur because it's kind of a subjective call that such a thing is necessary. Much better to take as a lesson for the next time you shoot to carefully consider frame rate and shutter speed so you get the sort of look you're personally after. Also- what do you mean by flutter- that also a subjective term. What is the footage doing that you don't like? -Noah

January 13th, 2009, 01:24 PM	#3
Kevin Wayne Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Tuscaloosa, Alabama Posts: 69	I believe you are right about adding motion blur. After a little experimenting it is not practical. This particular footage was shot 1080p 30p with a shutter speed of 1/60. Normally I shoot 1080i. Progressive has a different look. It's only noticeable on my analog interlaced old technology monitor. The fluttering I mention is very subtle and probably no one would notice it but me. It's particularly noticeable during scenes of on-screen movement. In my case hands gesturing by the on screen talent. Thanks. Kevin Jones

January 13th, 2009, 02:25 PM	#4
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Kevin, I know exactly what you mean. I'm sensitive to it too. I think there may be very slight difference in people's "persistence of vision" and how people react to it aesthetically as well. 24p drives me nuts for that reason. Sometimes I find shutting 1080p30 with shutter off (which is 1/30) instead of 1/60 helps immensely. It's really an aesthetic decision though. Another alternative is to shoot 720p60 which has greater temporal resolution. Again it's a different look but those are avenues worth exploring.

January 13th, 2009, 04:37 PM	#6
Kevin Wayne Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Tuscaloosa, Alabama Posts: 69	I like the idea of "shutter OFF". I will try that tomorrow. Thanks for the input! Kevin Jones

January 13th, 2009, 08:10 PM	#7
Noah Kadner Better than Halle Berry Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 435	FYI- 'shutter off' is simply matching the shutter speed to frame rate. So 30p = 1/30, 24p = 1/24, etc. I personally don't like the look at all- it's too smeary and video like to my eyes. I much prefer a 1/48 or 1/60 for 24p and don't like 30p at all because it looks too much like a cross between video and film look- sort of a halfway there format. Anyways- the point is that this stuff is subjective. :) -Noah

January 14th, 2009, 01:16 AM	#11
Andrew Stone Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 975	David I think Mitchell is referring to what should be the "shutter" switch that is smack below the lens mount between the white balance and the Assign 4 button. I know I got tripped up on this when I first got the camera. I know it's been said before but placing the white balance and shutter on/off switch under the lens mount was a usability blunder.

January 14th, 2009, 03:41 PM	#13
Kevin Wayne Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Tuscaloosa, Alabama Posts: 69	Shot some outdoor footage of municipal workers today. Shot 1080p with the shutter turned off. Very nice look. The shutter in the "off" position introduces just enough motion blur to smooth out the flutter I was seeing with the shutter set to 1/60. Also shot repeat shots of same activity set to 1080i 1/60 to compare. Looked similar but introduced interlacing artifacts. Thanks for the shutter OFF tip. Kevin Jones