HD200 to EX3 "wildlife" teething pains (with video)

Eric Gulbransen · December 31st, 2008, 11:36 AM

So no one else is experiencing such a huge discrepancy between what they see in the monitor VS what the camera actually records? Like, night and day differences? Even while going through the footage in the thumbnails and playing them in camera, they look beautifully exposed - then they are fried once imported?

Vincent Oliver · December 31st, 2008, 01:08 PM

I must say that my viewfinder as good as matches my screen pictures. I have a fully colour calibrated monitor which is re-calibrated and profiled with a Spyder 3 once a week.

Brian Luce · December 31st, 2008, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver

I must say that my viewfinder as good as matches my screen pictures. I have a fully colour calibrated monitor which is re-calibrated and profiled with a Spyder 3 once a week.

Do you have EX1 or 3?

Alister Chapman · December 31st, 2008, 02:38 PM

Eric, have you looked at your footage on a different monitor? The frame grab you posted doesn't look all that bad and not vastly different to what I think the LCD was showing.

Eric Gulbransen · December 31st, 2008, 07:13 PM

Alister, trust me. This LCD is night and day different. Gives the look (and I have adjusted it up and down with brightness, but not color bars) that you are UNDERexposing your image, when actually you are doing the opposite. I have not viewed the footage on another monitor yet. I will do this at paolo Ciccone's this Saturday, all day, while he developes his picture profiles for the EX3. I'm reluctant to say it's this monitor since this is the same one I use for all my stills work, and for the HD200 footage. I know it's not a proper video monitor, but I've never had issues like this before. Who knows... I'll find out Saturday.

Thank you Vincent. GREAT to know yours is accurate.

Vincent, sorry for the delayed reaction to your two links. Didn't chase them down until tonight. Great links. Thank you sincerely. Can't wait to go try all my new settings tomorrow. Watch how bad I screw up now....!

Vincent Oliver · January 1st, 2009, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

Do you have EX1 or 3?

I have the EX3 and despite my original disappointment with the output to DVD (SD) I am truly pleased with the purchase. Shot some footage over Christmas on my Canon XHA1 in SD and did the same on the EX3 and then put all the footage on a DVD. The EX3 footage stood head and shoulder above the Canon, even after it had been "processed" to match SD format (720x480 NTSC).

Happy New Year to All

Derek Reich · January 2nd, 2009, 09:29 AM

Hi, Eric-
I'm a total newbie here, so bear with me if I don't get this posted correctly the first time.
I have been reading this thread, as I also have ordered Mike Tapa's Nikon adapter (don't have it yet) but obviously this thread caught my attention.

This may have been covered and I missed it, (I skimmed a bit) but have you also noticed the clipping and discrepancies with your LCD when using your Fuji lens, too? I am wondering if using the Nikon glass and adapter mount is having something to do with this. I have only had my EX3 a short time, so I'm still on the learning curve... and am frustrated by the lack of information on some subjects such as picture profiles (can you post some when you get yours set up please? Particularly if you get some specifically for using the Nikon adapter/Nikon glass? I have been actively looking for some good profiles)

I also have noticed there is a set up section in the menu for different lenses, but no documentation on what settings to use for different lenses. I don't know where you would find that.... I have ordered the Fuji 2/3" adapter so I can use my Canon broadcast lenses on this camera (I tested one before I bought the EX, and it looked even better than the Fuji lens which comes on it, which surprised me since it is a SD lens)
Anyway, I was curious if your experience extended to your stock lens. I'll be anxious to hear what you accomplish in your set up.

Simon Wyndham · January 2nd, 2009, 12:30 PM

Hi Derek, if you could post some grabs from your Canon lens when the Fuji adaptor arrives and compare it to the standard EX3 stock lens it would be really very much appreciated. Which Canon lens will you be using?

Derek Reich · January 2nd, 2009, 01:09 PM

Hi, Simon-
I'd be happy to.... but first I also have to upgrade my FCP to even be able to work with the files. (mutters under his breath about having to buy the whole 'suite' to get FCP6)

The lens I am going to use is my old Canon workhorse 2/3" J20ax8B4 IRS from my Beta D600. I just thought if it even looked halfway decent, it would be a cheap tele for the price of the adapter. (of course, the first adapter I bought was the Sony one, which was less than half the price of the Fuji adapter. Now I know why... the Sony has no electronic connection for servo zoom, aperture or return. I've ordered the Fuji and am still waiting for it to arrive)

I did a rather unscientific test before I bought my EX... I brought the Canon to the retailer (a high-end broadcast supply house) and we hooked it up to an EX3, and A/B'd it with an EX1 (same lens, I understand.. you just can't take it off) into a really good Sony HD monitor. I didn't really expect it to look as good as the Fuji lens which I'd heard positive things about. Much to our surprise, the Canon looked better! No CA, and it actually had more detail... but of course there could be differences in the two cameras. I think the sales guy made sure there were no PP's on either camera, and everything was equal. Anyway, we were quite impressed, so I'm very much looking forward to getting my adapter and giving it a go. I'll post when it arrives, and I get some frame grabs. It may be that with the 'bump' going from a 2/3" to a 1/2" I'm using more of the sweet spot of the lens, I don't know. But I'm not complaining.....

Does anyone know where to find information on the lens file setup for using different lenses in the EX3? Do they have to be manually entered using a scope or something, or are there some settings which can be used for different lenses that can be found somewhere? I don't have a clue about this.... maybe I should read the manual....

Dave Morrison · January 4th, 2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver

I must say that my viewfinder as good as matches my screen pictures. I have a fully colour calibrated monitor which is re-calibrated and profiled with a Spyder 3 once a week.

Vincent, I'm curious about something in your post. What monitor are you using (sorry if I missed it earlier)? Is it a computer monitor or a broadcast monitor? I'd be curious to know if the Spyder has a calibration routine for the gamma and color spaces of broadcast monitors as opposed to the standard computer monitor.

Vincent Oliver · January 5th, 2009, 01:37 AM

Dave,

I am using a Samsung SyncMaster 245a (24") computer monitor, this is calibrated with a Spyder. I also have a JVC Broadcast Monitor which is callibrated using the colour bars from the Sony camera. Unfortunately the Spyder does not work with this monitor, but at a meeting with DataColor I did suggest to them that they produced a software application that would allow for an accurate calibration using the Spyder - they are looking into this.

Eric Gulbransen · January 6th, 2009, 11:50 PM

Want to share the progress we're achieving. OK maybe it's not forward progress, more sideways I think, but here it is anyway.

Got a Spyder to calibrate this Cinema display monitor. Thanks for the info on that guys.

I chased down that Sony profile settings link Vincent, and I created a profile that I hoped would help with the clipping. Lots of gamma and knee adjustments. I named it "HighLight". But after a bit of well documented test shooting, which I'll share here, I learned my biggest problem was that I had originally set the zebras, mistakenly, at 90 - because that's where I'd set them on the JVC. Moron. I didn't realize there were two on the EX3. And with the 10% fudge factor that Sony even mentions in the manual for the first set of zebras, yeah, now I can see why I had clipping while no zebras showed. With them lowered again, and with both zebras ON, now I can see how to avoid clipping.

Brian Luce and I went to Paolo Ciccone's place this past Saturday and dragged him out of his business mindset, right back into pixels and color spaces and gamma settings. This was his first look at an EX3. He hooked it up to his laptop and this is what he saw. After only a very short stint of tweaking, which is simply not nearly enough, this is where he got it to.

We also adjusted the monitor on the Sony, to match the monitor on the pc & the actual subject (a color chart). As you will see in my sample frame grabs, my monitor is still showing me a very different image than the one that's being recorded. Forget that I used a Spyder on this monitor - you check for yourself. I took three stills each (no zebras, 80 zebras showing, 80 & 100 zebras showing) of the LCD with Paolo Ciccone's (not finished yet) EX3 "True Color" profile at work. The folder with these three frame grabs is here.

As you can see, I still can't get my EX3 monitor coordinated with the image that the camera is actually recording. It seems off by at least three stops. Or am I crazy?

The camera was recording in SP (which was a mistake) 24p with a 1/48th shutter, on a tripod, focused perfectly on the gulls wings. I then rendered it in a HQ 1080p timeline, so pay no mind to image clarity. Apparently the SP setting got tripped ON in all the activity going on in the menus on Saturday. This test was really just to learn how when and why this camera clips anyway, so who cares about the SP to HQ debacle. I wasn't even testing Paolo's color settings. He said we need at least two more full days of adjusting before it's ready to try. Good lord.

Just in case anyone is curious, with the EX3 on the scope I threw a Nikon 28-70 2.8 AF-S ED lens on there and it seems to render color almost exactly the same as the stock lens does.

Jay Gladwell · January 7th, 2009, 06:27 AM

No, Eric, you're not crazy.

I don't know all the technical ins-and-outs, but I can tell you that there is an excellent chance that you will never get your camera monitor to match your production monitor (as per you three images show). If that were possible, the camera would cost twice as much as it does. This on-board monitor was never designed/meant to provide an exact image of what you're recording. That's what production monitors are for.

Instead of trying to make the monitor something it isn't, try training your eye (brain) to recognize the difference between what you see and what you'll get. For instance, if you know the viewfinder is 2-stops over, then you know when you get "that look" you've got the exposure you want.

Again, these monitors are (more or less) for framing and focus, not fine tuning of contrast, brightness, ect.

December 31st, 2008, 01:08 PM	#47
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	I must say that my viewfinder as good as matches my screen pictures. I have a fully colour calibrated monitor which is re-calibrated and profiled with a Spyder 3 once a week. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

December 31st, 2008, 02:38 PM	#49
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Eric, have you looked at your footage on a different monitor? The frame grab you posted doesn't look all that bad and not vastly different to what I think the LCD was showing. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

December 31st, 2008, 07:13 PM	#50
Eric Gulbransen Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Palo Alto, California Posts: 520	Alister, trust me. This LCD is night and day different. Gives the look (and I have adjusted it up and down with brightness, but not color bars) that you are UNDERexposing your image, when actually you are doing the opposite. I have not viewed the footage on another monitor yet. I will do this at paolo Ciccone's this Saturday, all day, while he developes his picture profiles for the EX3. I'm reluctant to say it's this monitor since this is the same one I use for all my stills work, and for the HD200 footage. I know it's not a proper video monitor, but I've never had issues like this before. Who knows... I'll find out Saturday. Thank you Vincent. GREAT to know yours is accurate. Vincent, sorry for the delayed reaction to your two links. Didn't chase them down until tonight. Great links. Thank you sincerely. Can't wait to go try all my new settings tomorrow. Watch how bad I screw up now....! Last edited by Eric Gulbransen; December 31st, 2008 at 09:47 PM.

January 5th, 2009, 01:37 AM	#56
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Dave, I am using a Samsung SyncMaster 245a (24") computer monitor, this is calibrated with a Spyder. I also have a JVC Broadcast Monitor which is callibrated using the colour bars from the Sony camera. Unfortunately the Spyder does not work with this monitor, but at a meeting with DataColor I did suggest to them that they produced a software application that would allow for an accurate calibration using the Spyder - they are looking into this. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

December 31st, 2008, 11:36 AM	#46
Eric Gulbransen Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Palo Alto, California Posts: 520	So no one else is experiencing such a huge discrepancy between what they see in the monitor VS what the camera actually records? Like, night and day differences? Even while going through the footage in the thumbnails and playing them in camera, they look beautifully exposed - then they are fried once imported?

January 2nd, 2009, 09:29 AM	#52
Derek Reich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Washoe Valley, NV Posts: 304	Hi, Eric- I'm a total newbie here, so bear with me if I don't get this posted correctly the first time. I have been reading this thread, as I also have ordered Mike Tapa's Nikon adapter (don't have it yet) but obviously this thread caught my attention. This may have been covered and I missed it, (I skimmed a bit) but have you also noticed the clipping and discrepancies with your LCD when using your Fuji lens, too? I am wondering if using the Nikon glass and adapter mount is having something to do with this. I have only had my EX3 a short time, so I'm still on the learning curve... and am frustrated by the lack of information on some subjects such as picture profiles (can you post some when you get yours set up please? Particularly if you get some specifically for using the Nikon adapter/Nikon glass? I have been actively looking for some good profiles) I also have noticed there is a set up section in the menu for different lenses, but no documentation on what settings to use for different lenses. I don't know where you would find that.... I have ordered the Fuji 2/3" adapter so I can use my Canon broadcast lenses on this camera (I tested one before I bought the EX, and it looked even better than the Fuji lens which comes on it, which surprised me since it is a SD lens) Anyway, I was curious if your experience extended to your stock lens. I'll be anxious to hear what you accomplish in your set up.

January 2nd, 2009, 12:30 PM	#53
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Hi Derek, if you could post some grabs from your Canon lens when the Fuji adaptor arrives and compare it to the standard EX3 stock lens it would be really very much appreciated. Which Canon lens will you be using?

January 2nd, 2009, 01:09 PM	#54
Derek Reich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Washoe Valley, NV Posts: 304	Hi, Simon- I'd be happy to.... but first I also have to upgrade my FCP to even be able to work with the files. (mutters under his breath about having to buy the whole 'suite' to get FCP6) The lens I am going to use is my old Canon workhorse 2/3" J20ax8B4 IRS from my Beta D600. I just thought if it even looked halfway decent, it would be a cheap tele for the price of the adapter. (of course, the first adapter I bought was the Sony one, which was less than half the price of the Fuji adapter. Now I know why... the Sony has no electronic connection for servo zoom, aperture or return. I've ordered the Fuji and am still waiting for it to arrive) I did a rather unscientific test before I bought my EX... I brought the Canon to the retailer (a high-end broadcast supply house) and we hooked it up to an EX3, and A/B'd it with an EX1 (same lens, I understand.. you just can't take it off) into a really good Sony HD monitor. I didn't really expect it to look as good as the Fuji lens which I'd heard positive things about. Much to our surprise, the Canon looked better! No CA, and it actually had more detail... but of course there could be differences in the two cameras. I think the sales guy made sure there were no PP's on either camera, and everything was equal. Anyway, we were quite impressed, so I'm very much looking forward to getting my adapter and giving it a go. I'll post when it arrives, and I get some frame grabs. It may be that with the 'bump' going from a 2/3" to a 1/2" I'm using more of the sweet spot of the lens, I don't know. But I'm not complaining..... Does anyone know where to find information on the lens file setup for using different lenses in the EX3? Do they have to be manually entered using a scope or something, or are there some settings which can be used for different lenses that can be found somewhere? I don't have a clue about this.... maybe I should read the manual....

January 6th, 2009, 11:50 PM	#57
Eric Gulbransen Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Palo Alto, California Posts: 520	Want to share the progress we're achieving. OK maybe it's not forward progress, more sideways I think, but here it is anyway. Got a Spyder to calibrate this Cinema display monitor. Thanks for the info on that guys. I chased down that Sony profile settings link Vincent, and I created a profile that I hoped would help with the clipping. Lots of gamma and knee adjustments. I named it "HighLight". But after a bit of well documented test shooting, which I'll share here, I learned my biggest problem was that I had originally set the zebras, mistakenly, at 90 - because that's where I'd set them on the JVC. Moron. I didn't realize there were two on the EX3. And with the 10% fudge factor that Sony even mentions in the manual for the first set of zebras, yeah, now I can see why I had clipping while no zebras showed. With them lowered again, and with both zebras ON, now I can see how to avoid clipping. Brian Luce and I went to Paolo Ciccone's place this past Saturday and dragged him out of his business mindset, right back into pixels and color spaces and gamma settings. This was his first look at an EX3. He hooked it up to his laptop and this is what he saw. After only a very short stint of tweaking, which is simply not nearly enough, this is where he got it to. We also adjusted the monitor on the Sony, to match the monitor on the pc & the actual subject (a color chart). As you will see in my sample frame grabs, my monitor is still showing me a very different image than the one that's being recorded. Forget that I used a Spyder on this monitor - you check for yourself. I took three stills each (no zebras, 80 zebras showing, 80 & 100 zebras showing) of the LCD with Paolo Ciccone's (not finished yet) EX3 "True Color" profile at work. The folder with these three frame grabs is here. As you can see, I still can't get my EX3 monitor coordinated with the image that the camera is actually recording. It seems off by at least three stops. Or am I crazy? The camera was recording in SP (which was a mistake) 24p with a 1/48th shutter, on a tripod, focused perfectly on the gulls wings. I then rendered it in a HQ 1080p timeline, so pay no mind to image clarity. Apparently the SP setting got tripped ON in all the activity going on in the menus on Saturday. This test was really just to learn how when and why this camera clips anyway, so who cares about the SP to HQ debacle. I wasn't even testing Paolo's color settings. He said we need at least two more full days of adjusting before it's ready to try. Good lord. Just in case anyone is curious, with the EX3 on the scope I threw a Nikon 28-70 2.8 AF-S ED lens on there and it seems to render color almost exactly the same as the stock lens does.

January 7th, 2009, 06:27 AM	#58
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	No, Eric, you're not crazy. I don't know all the technical ins-and-outs, but I can tell you that there is an excellent chance that you will never get your camera monitor to match your production monitor (as per you three images show). If that were possible, the camera would cost twice as much as it does. This on-board monitor was never designed/meant to provide an exact image of what you're recording. That's what production monitors are for. Instead of trying to make the monitor something it isn't, try training your eye (brain) to recognize the difference between what you see and what you'll get. For instance, if you know the viewfinder is 2-stops over, then you know when you get "that look" you've got the exposure you want. Again, these monitors are (more or less) for framing and focus, not fine tuning of contrast, brightness, ect.