How to get best quality EX1 Slow Motion? at DVinfo.net

Cory Trepanier · December 22nd, 2008, 12:28 AM

Shoot in-camera 720p (60fps) or 1080p (30fps) and slow down in post? I am excited about the SDHC media solutions that have been developed by some of you in the community here. Thank you so much! Planning a month and a half in the Canadian arctic in 2009, and this means maybe not even having to bring a laptop into the wilderness and worrying about power for it. Back to my question: the SDHC solution doesn't allow for overcranking it seems, but if one is seeking BEST IMAGE QUALITY with the EX1, wouldn't that be achieved using the highest quality footage first (1080p) and then slowing down in post? I'm using FCP , Motion (optical flow for slow- mo). Besides, it's often difficult to know until you are editing just what pieces you might want slowed down, and to what rate. EX1 doesn't do 60fps in 1080P (unlike the shoulder mount XD Cams), so you would be throwing out detail from the get go. My goal is to maintain highest image quality to satisfy HD broadcasters. Should I ever bother overcranking in camera if the quality will suffer, or am I missing something? Thanks...

Perrone Ford · December 22nd, 2008, 12:34 AM

720p is part of the official HD broadcast standard. Why on earth would it not be supported? Many cameras cannot overcrank at their best resolution. I don't see this as an issue. The 720p image out of the EX1 is lovely, and certainly nothing anyone would fault you for. It's also more pleasant to work with in post.

If you need the overcranking, shoot 720p60 or do real overcranking. Yes, the SDHC solution will not work for overcranking but they DO work for 720p60. So if that works for you, you're golden.

Simon Denny · December 22nd, 2008, 12:49 AM

I even think that 720p does a better downconvert to SD Mpeg. I'm testing 1080p vs 720p and have found 720p gives a better image, why I dont know. What i'm thinking is that there is less info to downconvert to SD.
Sorry re read your post and your going to broadcasters. 720p is still fine though

Cory Trepanier · December 22nd, 2008, 12:50 AM

Thanks... but I'm still wondering if anyone has done a comparison as to which method yields the highest image quality. As a side note, editing on a 1080P 37" Sharp Aquos LCD, I do find the 1080P footage I shoot to be more nicer than the 720P, though it is also very nice, more pixels is more pixels :)

Steve Phillipps · December 22nd, 2008, 04:30 AM

No question it's 720/60P, otherwise "Planet Earth" would have been shot on Sony F900 at 1080/30P rather than 720P Varicams. You just can't get the smooth slomo in post production from 30P material. It's better from 60i by de-interlacing but still a bit jittery and of course you're losing resolution in the process so losing the benefit of 1080.
Steve

Cory Trepanier · December 22nd, 2008, 04:50 AM

Thanks for the Planet Earth example... that kind of clear example in the broadcast world helps a great deal.

Steve Connor · December 22nd, 2008, 04:55 AM

Certainly use 720/60, we recently did a shoot with a HDCam 790 shooting as "A" camera and an EX1 shooting slowmo at 720/60 at the same time. If I slowmo the 790 footage it doesn't look anywhere near as good as the EX1.

I'd post an example but some of you may be offended by footage of a female dancer in her underwear!

Simon Denny · December 22nd, 2008, 05:19 AM

What about 720/50 for pal?

Cory Trepanier · December 22nd, 2008, 06:49 AM

Steve, might I ask how you are doing slowmo? Are you using the NLE or something like Twixtor or Motion (with optical reflow on).

Steve Connor · December 22nd, 2008, 07:25 AM

SlowMo in Motion with optical flow on.

Steve Phillipps · December 22nd, 2008, 09:15 AM

720/50 for PAl would be the same as 720/60 for NTSC.
But if you're after slomo for PAL, you might as well use 720/60, or is there a reason not to that I don't know about?
Steve

Michael B. McGee · December 22nd, 2008, 10:02 AM

I'd post an example but some of you may be offended by footage of a female dancer in her underwear![/Q

oh no, by all means let us see. we're all professional adults here. post away!!!

Steve Connor · December 22nd, 2008, 12:35 PM

http://www.flyingmachinestv.co.uk/framerate.wmv 68mb file.

It's not very scientific but it may help.

(WARNING: If you are offended by women in skimpy underwear then don't download)

Perrone Ford · December 22nd, 2008, 01:10 PM

It was hard to judge well because of the difference in framing, but the EX1 certainly looked smoother in slow mo.

As an aside, how was this lit? Looked quite good actually.

Buck Forester · December 22nd, 2008, 01:24 PM

If one doesn't have the overcranking limitation by the SDHC cards, isn't it better to do 720p (30fps) overcranked to 60fps in camera, than to do 720p (60fps) and slow in post? I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly and the solutions you're giving are specific to the SDHC limitations.

December 22nd, 2008, 12:28 AM	#1
Cory Trepanier New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Caledon, Ontario Posts: 7	How to get best quality EX1 Slow Motion? Shoot in-camera 720p (60fps) or 1080p (30fps) and slow down in post? I am excited about the SDHC media solutions that have been developed by some of you in the community here. Thank you so much! Planning a month and a half in the Canadian arctic in 2009, and this means maybe not even having to bring a laptop into the wilderness and worrying about power for it. Back to my question: the SDHC solution doesn't allow for overcranking it seems, but if one is seeking BEST IMAGE QUALITY with the EX1, wouldn't that be achieved using the highest quality footage first (1080p) and then slowing down in post? I'm using FCP , Motion (optical flow for slow- mo). Besides, it's often difficult to know until you are editing just what pieces you might want slowed down, and to what rate. EX1 doesn't do 60fps in 1080P (unlike the shoulder mount XD Cams), so you would be throwing out detail from the get go. My goal is to maintain highest image quality to satisfy HD broadcasters. Should I ever bother overcranking in camera if the quality will suffer, or am I missing something? Thanks...

December 22nd, 2008, 12:34 AM	#2
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	720p is part of the official HD broadcast standard. Why on earth would it not be supported? Many cameras cannot overcrank at their best resolution. I don't see this as an issue. The 720p image out of the EX1 is lovely, and certainly nothing anyone would fault you for. It's also more pleasant to work with in post. If you need the overcranking, shoot 720p60 or do real overcranking. Yes, the SDHC solution will not work for overcranking but they DO work for 720p60. So if that works for you, you're golden. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

December 22nd, 2008, 01:10 PM	#14
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	It was hard to judge well because of the difference in framing, but the EX1 certainly looked smoother in slow mo. As an aside, how was this lit? Looked quite good actually. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

December 22nd, 2008, 12:49 AM	#3
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	I even think that 720p does a better downconvert to SD Mpeg. I'm testing 1080p vs 720p and have found 720p gives a better image, why I dont know. What i'm thinking is that there is less info to downconvert to SD. Sorry re read your post and your going to broadcasters. 720p is still fine though

December 22nd, 2008, 12:50 AM	#4
Cory Trepanier New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Caledon, Ontario Posts: 7	Thanks... but I'm still wondering if anyone has done a comparison as to which method yields the highest image quality. As a side note, editing on a 1080P 37" Sharp Aquos LCD, I do find the 1080P footage I shoot to be more nicer than the 720P, though it is also very nice, more pixels is more pixels :)

December 22nd, 2008, 04:30 AM	#5
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	No question it's 720/60P, otherwise "Planet Earth" would have been shot on Sony F900 at 1080/30P rather than 720P Varicams. You just can't get the smooth slomo in post production from 30P material. It's better from 60i by de-interlacing but still a bit jittery and of course you're losing resolution in the process so losing the benefit of 1080. Steve

December 22nd, 2008, 04:50 AM	#6
Cory Trepanier New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Caledon, Ontario Posts: 7	Thanks for the Planet Earth example... that kind of clear example in the broadcast world helps a great deal.

December 22nd, 2008, 04:55 AM	#7
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	Certainly use 720/60, we recently did a shoot with a HDCam 790 shooting as "A" camera and an EX1 shooting slowmo at 720/60 at the same time. If I slowmo the 790 footage it doesn't look anywhere near as good as the EX1. I'd post an example but some of you may be offended by footage of a female dancer in her underwear!

December 22nd, 2008, 05:19 AM	#8
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	What about 720/50 for pal?

December 22nd, 2008, 06:49 AM	#9
Cory Trepanier New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Caledon, Ontario Posts: 7	Steve, might I ask how you are doing slowmo? Are you using the NLE or something like Twixtor or Motion (with optical reflow on).

December 22nd, 2008, 07:25 AM	#10
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	SlowMo in Motion with optical flow on.

December 22nd, 2008, 09:15 AM	#11
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	720/50 for PAl would be the same as 720/60 for NTSC. But if you're after slomo for PAL, you might as well use 720/60, or is there a reason not to that I don't know about? Steve

December 22nd, 2008, 10:02 AM	#12
Michael B. McGee Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Santa Monica, CA Posts: 318	I'd post an example but some of you may be offended by footage of a female dancer in her underwear![/Q oh no, by all means let us see. we're all professional adults here. post away!!!

December 22nd, 2008, 12:35 PM	#13
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	http://www.flyingmachinestv.co.uk/framerate.wmv 68mb file. It's not very scientific but it may help. (WARNING: If you are offended by women in skimpy underwear then don't download)

December 22nd, 2008, 01:24 PM	#15
Buck Forester Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: California Posts: 230	If one doesn't have the overcranking limitation by the SDHC cards, isn't it better to do 720p (30fps) overcranked to 60fps in camera, than to do 720p (60fps) and slow in post? I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly and the solutions you're giving are specific to the SDHC limitations.