Different frame rates and sizes for the EX1?

[Nick Stone]

Hi I’m looking at different recording frame rates and sizes.
I currently record in HQ1920 x 1080 /50i and I’m wondering for what application would I use 1280 x 720 /50p or 1280 x 720/25p. And what shutter speeds should I use with this format.

I know that the resolution is smaller but as I go to DVD anyway what would I gain using this format with the EX1?

I love this camera but the down conversion to DVD is shocking after seeing footage in HQ 1920 x1080

Thanks

[Andrew Stone]

Shooting 25p will allow you to do overcranking or slow motion shooting at up to less than half of real time. Shooting progressive has lots of intrinsic benefits if your final is going to end up both online and on DVD. Shooting at 25 frames will allow you to get more or a film look, if that is what you are after.

Shooting 1080 progressive gives you a lot of flexibility with your final output. 720 progressive is good if you are doing a lot of overcranking.

You also gain more stops (light) as you bring the frame rate down which can be really helpful.

I've found the best way to get a handle on it is to shoot in the different modes.

[Nick Stone]

Hi Andy,
By bringing the frame rate down do you mean? 1920 to 720 I gain more light?
Yes your right testing.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Nick Stone

I love this camera but the down conversion to DVD is shocking after seeing footage in HQ 1920 x1080

Thanks

You are about the 4th person I've heard say this recently. Tonight I did an experiment because I've not experienced this issue.

Last week I recorded a test interview. Shot under tungsten light, so not ideal, but still quite clean and detailed.

I used the following workflow:

1. Load XDCamEX footage into NLE
2. Render uncompressed 1080p file (compare to original... identical)
3. Take uncompressed file into Lanczos resize and change it to 720x405)
4. Do a slight de-noise on the footage to ensure it's clean
5. Bring 720x405 clean footage back into NLE
6. Render progressive widescreen mpeg2 file and AAC audio file
7. Open DVD Authoring program and load in mpeg2/aac files
8. Create .iso file so I don't have to burn a real disk.
9. Open .iso file in VLC

The image was gorgeous. I could even see the stray shirt fibers from wear on my collar. And each gray hair on my head was plainly clear. I could see my individual pores also.

So I am not sure what others are doing to produce their DVDs, but my workflow gives me results I am THOROUGHLY proud of. And I will be producing some corporate DVDs next month with this exact workflow.

[Nick Stone]

Hi Perrone,
Sounds like you have a great workflow, I have just moved over to FCS from Vegas.
After seeing footage in it's glory from the EX1 and then seeing the end resulting DVD leaves me heart broken, I'm interested in your workflow.
What's Lanczos?

[Andrew Stone]

Originally Posted by Nick Stone

By bringing the frame rate down do you mean? 1920 to 720 I gain more light?

It is both resolution and frame rate. If you go from 50 frames to 25 you will see a definite increase in light. If you go from 1920 to 720 you will see a light increase as well. Combine the 2 and you get about a full stop increase in light.

[Dominik Seibold]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

3. Take uncompressed file into Lanczos resize and change it to 720x405)

You know that 720x405 is square-pixel and letterboxed, so it will look distorted on a TV and you're wasting 75 lines?

Originally Posted by Andy Stone

It is both resolution and frame rate. If you go from 50 frames to 25 you will see a definite increase in light.

You mean going from 720p50 to 720p25? If that makes your picture lighter then you're using a framerate dependend shutter-speed-setting. So it will also increase motion blur.

Originally Posted by Andy Stone

If you go from 1920 to 720 you will see a light increase as well.

Going from 1080p to 720p will give you about a half of a stop. But that half of a stop isn't a christmas-gift, but achieved by digital amplification in the same way as using the gain-control. So you are loosing latitude of a half of a stop.

[Paul Kellett]

Originally Posted by Nick Stone

Hi Perrone,
Sounds like you have a great workflow, I have just moved over to FCS from Vegas.
After seeing footage in it's glory from the EX1 and then seeing the end resulting DVD leaves me heart broken, I'm interested in your workflow.
What's Lanczos?

I'm using vegas to produce dvd's from my EX1, the pictures are great.

Paul.

[Nick Stone]

Shooting in 1080i or 720p?
What's the better end product with the EX1 for down conversion to SD DVD.
This might seem silly but will 720p render out better quality SD than 1920?

I feel that the software is lagging behind camera devolpment and I think for myself this wonderfull camera is not showing it's true image at converted HD, to SD DVD.

How can these movies we get from the video shop look so clean. These films are shot on high grade cameras, HOW DO THEY CONVERT to SD DVD?

Man

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Nick Stone

Shooting in 1080i or 720p?
What's the better end product with the EX1 for down conversion to SD DVD.

1080p. Otherwise 1080i which offers more light and less noise than 720p.

Originally Posted by Nick Stone

This might seem silly but will 720p render out better quality SD than 1920?

No.

Originally Posted by Nick Stone

I feel that the software is lagging behind camera devolpment and I think for myself this wonderfull camera is not showing it's true image at converted HD, to SD DVD.

No its not. Perhaps the tools you are using are. Listen to what you are saying. The camera has delivered you gorgeous footage to your NLE. What happens from there is NOT up to the camera.

Originally Posted by Nick Stone

How can these movies we get from the video shop look so clean. These films are shot on high grade cameras, HOW DO THEY CONVERT to SD DVD?

They do it the way I outlined.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold

You know that 720x405 is square-pixel and letterboxed, so it will look distorted on a TV and you're wasting 75 lines?

No I am not wasting anything. The only thing in those 75 lines is black from the letterboxing. And no, my picture will not be distorted whatsoever, because the authoring software simply centers my image and letterboxes. I gain the advantage of not having to do a separate render for web use and waste storage saving it.

Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold

Going from 1080p to 720p will give you about a half of a stop. But that half of a stop isn't a christmas-gift, but achieved by digital amplification in the same way as using the gain-control. So you are loosing latitude of a half of a stop.

Exactly.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Nick Stone

Hi Perrone,
Sounds like you have a great workflow, I have just moved over to FCS from Vegas.
After seeing footage in it's glory from the EX1 and then seeing the end resulting DVD leaves me heart broken, I'm interested in your workflow.
What's Lanczos?

When resizing footage, there are several methods to getting it done. Some produce MUCH cleaner footage than others. The best use Lanczos or Bicubic Splines to resize. The worst use "nearest neighbor". I believe the reason some of you are seeing poor results from your SD downconverts is because you are using software that uses bad algorithms to do the downcovert. I use a tool that lets me choose my method. I am VERY pleased with my downconverts.

[Sverker Hahn]

I get good DV from FCS in this workflow:
1 Edit clips in timeline with XDCAM EX settings, but you do not have to render.
2 Create a DV sequence with these settings:
- Frame size - choose "CCIR / DV PAL (5:4)" from the menu and you get 720x576.
- Pixel aspect ratio : choose "PAL - CCIR 601 (720x576) from the menu and check "Anamorphic 16:9".
- Field dominance "None"
- Editing timebase "25"
- In QuickTime Video settings: click the button "Advanced" and choose "Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) - (don´t know if HQ is necessary)
3 Open this DV sequence and add your XDCAM EX sequences to it by dragging them to the canvas. You will get the question if you want to change the DV sequence settings to those which you are adding: then click the "No"-button
4 Render
5 Export to a QuickTime reference file (some people suggest a self-contained, but I find reference files have the same quality and they are smaller and faster to export)
6 Open Compressor and use one of the DVD settings; however I find that adding a sharpening filter with the "5" setting is worth it.
7 Add m2v and audio files as assets in DVD Studio Pro.

[Dominik Seibold]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

No I am not wasting anything. The only thing in those 75 lines is black from the letterboxing. And no, my picture will not be distorted whatsoever, because the authoring software simply centers my image and letterboxes.

You have to realize that DVDs are using non-square-pixels.
The frames build from the 720x480 pixels on a NTSC-DVD (or 720x576 in PAL-area) are displayed either as 4:3 or as 16:9 depending on the setting of your TV. But 720/480 is 3/2 which is neither 4/3 nor 16/9. So in any case those pixels won't be displayed as squares.
So if you want 16:9 letterboxed to 4:3, then you must resize your 1920x1080 footage to 720x360 (and add black bars to get 720x480).
But if you're using letterboxing then you're wasting lines, because you make them black instead of filling them with information. So you're loosing vertical resolution. You have to resize your 1920x1080 footage to 720x480 to get the highest resolution on a 16:9-TV. Your DVD-player (if properly configured) will letterbox it automatically if it is attached to a 4:3-TV.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold

You have to realize that DVDs are using non-square-pixels.

Yes, I do realize that.

Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold

The frames build from 720x480 pixels on a NTSC-DVD (or 720x576 in PAL-area) are displayed either as 4:3 or as 16:9 depending on the setting of your TV.

Ok.

Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold

But 720/480 is 3/2 which is neither 4/3 nor 16/9. So in any case those pixels won't be displayed as squares.
So if you want 16:9 letterboxed to 4:3, then you must resize your 1920x1080 footage to 720x360.

You know it's an amazing thing. When I build my 720x480 mpeg2 videos and take them into the authoring software, as widescreen, they never work properly. However, if I do it my way, they look just fine. And if I drop the original 1920x1080 files onto the timeline in the authoring software, they also look just fine. I am doing this on my laptop as I am typing to simply confirm what I already know. My way is giving me the expected, and desired results.

Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold

But if you're using letterboxing then you're wasting lines, because you make them black instead of filling them with information. So you're loosing vertical resolution.

I am not letterboxing anything. Really.

Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold

You have to resize your 1920x1080 footage to 720x480 to get the highest resolution on a 16:9-TV.

No, actually I don't. But I know what you're trying to say.

Originally Posted by Dominik Seibold

Your DVD-player (if properly configured) will letterbox it automatically if it is attached to a 4:3-TV.

Yes it will. Which is why I enable the widescreen flag in the compression.