PMW-EX3 for wildlife versus Canon

[Meryem Ersoz]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

The RED also has big issues for wildlife, not least of which is the fact that it takes 90 seconds to boot it up each time - oh, the bird's flown away! Also 4k is not quite 4k once you've gone through de-bayering etc., and for slomo you have to use 2k, which again after processing probably looks less good than a Varicam. Also the files take quite a bit of work to get them looking good from what I've seen - some stuff from RED looks excellent (on web only) while some looks muddy and horrible, I think it's a lot to do with the way they are post-processed. Other big problem is that it's such a new thing for the post houses and broadcasters that they're scared to death of it and know that it'll add so much to their tried and tested workflows that the amount of extra budget for post production will be unmanageable. I'm sure it'll get there eventually. Check out agb films, Andrew Graham Brown is using RED with cameraman Robin Cox for wildlife at the moment. I met up with him when I had my RED reservation and we talked it through, but then I found lots of issues for my type of work (plus an overnight 4 month delivery setback) and cancelled my reservation.

There's a ton of outdated information and misinformation in this assessment. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Watch some of these instead...

. - you need to click this highlighted dot - for some reason, DVinfo is not printing the full website name

Mammoth HD - RED 4K and 2K Footage Library

The new SCARLET is going to be the ultimate wildlife film camera. Two second start-up, four pounds, the mount will accept Nikon/Canon, better battery life. All the things that make RED a challenge for wildlife (mostly start up time, batt life, and weight) will be solved. And then some.

That doesn't help people shooting now to choose a new camera, but I've used Canon cameras forever, and, having played with an EX-1, I'd choose the Sony EX-3, if I had to buy something right now.

[Steve Phillipps]

Meryem, yes I realise that's it's a bit out-dated. I do follow the RED news and look forward to the new products as I said. But as they're not ready yet, maybe the post's not so out-dated after all - all we have for now is still the RED One.
If we can have a camera that's light, takes different lenses and shoots 120fps then that would be a good bit of wildlife kit, and it would be nice to get away from broadcast-type cameras which were never intended for our sort of shooting. This is the great strength with RED, and especially with the new line-up, the modularity of it means you can build the camera that best suits your needs.
Steve

[Steve Phillipps]

As for the Canons and even the EX cameras, there's no point shooting something the broadcasters won't use, and for many high-end docs and nature work the Canon is definitely out and the EX cameras are not at all favoured by BBC etc., it's got to be 35mm film or at least Varicam, HDCam or just about XDCam 422. Even Super 16 doesn't get the thumbs up any more.
Steve

[Meryem Ersoz]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

As for the Canons and even the EX cameras, there's no point shooting something the broadcasters won't use, and for many high-end docs and nature work the Canon is definitely out and the EX cameras are not at all favoured by BBC etc., it's got to be 35mm film or at least Varicam, HDCam or just about XDCam 422. Even Super 16 doesn't get the thumbs up any more.
Steve

I agree - but the Varicams and HDCams are another price point entirely - and since this was an EX v. Canon thread, I just thought I'd weigh in...SCARLET will compete in the EX/Canon category.

I think Canon, typically late to the party, will release something really great. If they're smart, they make something that works well with their existing L lenses, without adapters. A true 35mm video camera that handles motion well - unlike the 5D - at an H1 price point, that can handle the L lens electronics to their fullest extent, would be a true competitor...

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

If they're smart, they make something that works well with their existing L lenses, without adapters. A true 35mm video camera that handles motion well - unlike the 5D - at an H1 price point, that can handle the L lens electronics to their fullest extent, would be a true competitor...

It would take a miracle for Canon, or anyone else for that matter, to create a camera that took true 35mm lenses, and put them onto a single sensor 35mm sensor at anywhere near the price point of their competitors.

Now if you are talking about doing this onto a small sensor, then maybe. But it's still a reach. Something will have to give. And my bet is on price or codec.

[Steve Phillipps]

I agree Perrone, there's a lot of ideas that would nice in theory but if they were that easy to do then Sony/Panasonic or whoever would have done them already. The very expensive broadcast HD cameras do leave a lot to be desired and we can all see where we'd like improvments but for what they need to do they've been made as good as they can be made. So when someone comes along with something "revolutionary" like RED, the 5D MkII or the Ikonscop camera (or even the EX cameras) that look amazing on paper and are relatively inexpensive alarm bells must ring to tell you that compromises have been made somewhere along the line.
As for Scarlet competing with the Canon and EX, by the time it gets here who knows how things will have moved on. And I thought RED would be touting it as competing much higher up than that?
Steve

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

As for Scarlet competing with the Canon and EX, by the time it gets here who knows how things will have moved on. And I thought RED would be touting it as competing much higher up than that?
Steve

With a fixed lens, how can they? 2/3" sensors are old news.

If we look at his statement and parse out what's in that market, things become clear:

35mm lenses
At least 1080p
Big sensor

Let's see who plays in that league:

Sony F23/F35
Panny Genesis
TGV Viper
RED


Let's see who's not:

Pana. Varicam (2/3")
Sony F900R (2/3")
Silicon Imaging (2/3")


So one camera under $100k fits. All the major players under $100k don't. How the heck is Canon going to get there at an EX/HPX price point? Even if we allow the 2/3" sensor, the ballpark is still north of $50k.

[Steve Phillipps]

[QUOTE=Perrone Ford;984680]With a fixed lens, how can they? 2/3" sensors are old news.

That's what Meryem was saying though, things have changed - a lot!
Sacrlet now no longer has a fixed lens, and it can gave a 35mm sensor if you want! Check the link RED DIGITAL CINEMA - EPIC & SCARLET REVEALED if you haven't already, it's an amazing read - whether we'll ever get it is another matter, but if it was here now I'd go straight out and look at it - with my chequebook!!!
Steve

[Meryem Ersoz]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

It would take a miracle for Canon, or anyone else for that matter, to create a camera that took true 35mm lenses, and put them onto a single sensor 35mm sensor at anywhere near the price point of their competitors.

I disagree - they have already done this with a stills camera, and unlike Sony or Panny, they don't have top-line broadcast equipment price points to protect. On the contrary, they are perfectly positioned to do this - they've already done it, they just need to make a true video camera, rather than a stills cam that does a little video.

They don't sell tons of video cameras, which is not a big market for them, but they do sell tons of lenses - that's an exponentially bigger business for them, and as this hybridization movement gains traction, why not capitalize on the lens end?

People are falling all over themselves to find solutions to mount Canon's electronic lenses on RED cameras, why not a Canon lens on a Canon camera?

[Steve Phillipps]

But if Canon could do it then Sony or Panasonic could, so why haven't they? 'Cos they can't upto the quality and operational standards their users require.

Steve

[Meryem Ersoz]

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

they don't have top-line broadcast equipment price points to protect.

see above...canon is not similarly encumbered...

[Steve Phillipps]

I'm sure Sony and Panna do want to protect their other high price product lines, but that's not the whole story. If they could do it they would do, you surely can't be thinking that the managers at Canon would read this thread and think "yeah, a high spec, industry-leading camera at a fraction of the price of its competitors, damn, I wish we'd thought of that sooner, 'cos we can do it no problem".
Steve

[Perrone Ford]

Apparently, you are unfamiliar with Canon's upper end.. They produce the front ends for a great many studio camreas. They don't do the VTR sections, but those front ends approach 6 figures.

I don't think people are falling over themselves to mount Canon glass on REDs. I get the impression that Cookes, Arris, and Zeiss glass is serving the need pretty well.

As far as what "Canon have already done", I haven't seen it. Yes, they have a digital still camera that shoots at movie speed, but that doesn't make it a movie camera any more than it makes my EX1 a stills camera. Where's my sound? And if we're going to be forced to shoot MOS (which is fine) where's my genlock and timecode?

If you want to compare this camera to an EX1 and an HPX, that's one thing. But when you start talking about it playing in the league of 35mm sensor cameras, it's not playing with a full deck. And if you want to even compare it to the handycam market, you better put sound on it. And some reasonable frame rates too. Might be nice to hook a monitor to it so we could get critical focus on moving subjects.

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

I disagree - they have already done this with a stills camera, and unlike Sony or Panny, they don't have top-line broadcast equipment price points to protect. On the contrary, they are perfectly positioned to do this - they've already done it, they just need to make a true video camera, rather than a stills cam that does a little video.

They don't sell tons of video cameras, which is not a big market for them, but they do sell tons of lenses - that's an exponentially bigger business for them, and as this hybridization movement gains traction, why not capitalize on the lens end?

People are falling all over themselves to find solutions to mount Canon's electronic lenses on RED cameras, why not a Canon lens on a Canon camera?

[Steve Phillipps]

That's what I'm saying, six figure front ends are one thing but we're talking about industry-leading kit for 4 figure sums here - that's what some folks are saying about the 5d Mkii and I just don't think it's possible, you can get some good specs but only by cutting corners - how serious those cut corner are depend on the sort of work and market you have.
Steve

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

That's what I'm saying, six figure front ends are one thing but we're talking about industry-leading kit for 4 figure sums here - that's what some folks are saying about the 5d Mkii and I just don't think it's possible, you can get some good specs but only by cutting corners - how serious those cut corner are depend on the sort of work and market you have.
Steve

If NOTHING else, you are going to cut corners on the glass. Let's be honest, in under $10k cameras the two biggest letdowns are the glass and the codec. No full raster 4:2:2 codecs in anything in this price range, and no really good glass either. Making a cinema class zoom for under $10k is unattainable at this point. So we KNOW that's the letdown. Maybe if Canon could get away with not putting a lens on the thing, and licensing Cineform RAW they'd be onto something. Hopefully, they'll be smart and put HD-SDI on it too.