PMW-EX3 for wildlife versus Canon

[Don Greening]

Originally Posted by John Brinks

4-channel audio with HDV is not the same as 4-channel audio with DV... With HDV the sampling rate and quality is exactly the same, it just switches to MPEG2 audio compression, which is more efficient, and therefore takes up less space!

The manual for the XL-H1 seems to tell a different story. In HDV mode only two channels are available for 16 bit 48Khz recording and there's no option at all to use 4 channels. In DV mode there are two or four channels available depending on whether the bit and sample rate is set to 16/48 or 12/32.

However, when outputting via the SDI port there's an option to imbed the audio with the video (XL-H1s) and the audio sample rate will be output @16 bit 48 Khz regardless of what the recorded bit/sample rate is set to. Was this what you were referring to?

Unless I'm reading the manual wrong somehow.

- Don

[John Brinks]

According to canons website:

AUDIO
HDV Recording 2 channel MPEG1 Audio Layer II (48kHz, 384kbps), 4 channel MPEG2 Audio Layer II (48kHz, 384kbps)

SD Recording 2 channel PCM (48kHz, 16 bit or 32kHz, 12 bit), 4 channel PCM (32 kHz, 12 bit)

[Don Greening]

Originally Posted by John Brinks

According to canons website:

AUDIO
HDV Recording 2 channel MPEG1 Audio Layer II (48kHz, 384kbps), 4 channel MPEG2 Audio Layer II (48kHz, 384kbps)

SD Recording 2 channel PCM (48kHz, 16 bit or 32kHz, 12 bit), 4 channel PCM (32 kHz, 12 bit)

John, would you mind providing a link to the Canon page where this is stated, please? The last thing I want to do is spread mis-information about these cameras. Here are the audio specs stated for all 3 XH H1 series cameras from the Canon website.

XL H1

Audio Recording system
DV: PCM digital recording: 16 bits (48 kHz/2 channels), 12 bits (32 kHz//2 channels) selectable. 12 bit/synchronous (32 kHz/4 channels) is possible HDV: MPEG1 Audio Layer II: (Sampling frequency 48 kHz, bit rate 384 kbps/2 channels);

XL H1A

Audio Recording system
HDV: 2-channel recording MPEG1 Audio Layer II: (bit rate 384 kbps);
DV: 2-channel recording PCM digital recording: 16 bits (48 kHz), 12 bits (32 kHz, 12 bits selectable)

XL H1S

Audio Recording system
HDV: 2-channel recording MPEG1 Audio Layer II: (bit rate 384 kbps);
DV: 2-channel recording PCM digital recording: 16 bits (48 kHz), 12 bits (32 kHz, 12 bits selectable)

- Don

[Alister Chapman]

Even if it does 4 channels at 32 khz the quality of 32 khz audio is going to be pretty poor, certainly no good for broadcast or any serious audio applications which kind of makes having 4 channels pointless.

[John Brinks]

Did you even read the specs from my post Alister... it says CLEARLY 48khz for four channel HDV!!!

[Steve Connor]

Discovery will take 100% HDV under their Bronze standard, EX is acceptable to Silver standard which opens a lot more doors.

[Alister Chapman]

One of the reasons I sold my Canon XL-H1 was because it had so many non-standard modes that the only thing that could play the tapes back was the camera itself. Canons HDV extended audio modes, progressive and 24fps are all non-standard modes. For some this may not be an issue, but I still have tapes sitting on my shelves that I can't play back because, while I do have a couple of HDV decks I don't have the H1 anymore.
I also found the H1 viewfinder far to small and the lens mount design where the zoom control stays attached to the camera really restricts the range of lenses you can use.

[Paul Frederick]

Originally Posted by Steve Connor

Discovery will take 100% HDV under their Bronze standard, EX is acceptable to Silver standard which opens a lot more doors.

Where are you all getting this information on what Discovery will accept and the info on the different levels? I would love to read more about it. Is there a website with this info?

Thanks.

[Alister Chapman]

The Discovery documentation is only available to accredited production companies or those with a Discovery commission and it's distribution is not allowed.

[Dave Tyrer]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

One of the reasons I sold my Canon XL-H1 was because it had so many non-standard modes that the only thing that could play the tapes back was the camera itself. Canons HDV extended audio modes, progressive and 24fps are all non-standard modes. For some this may not be an issue, but I still have tapes sitting on my shelves that I can't play back because, while I do have a couple of HDV decks I don't have the H1 anymore.
I also found the H1 viewfinder far to small and the lens mount design where the zoom control stays attached to the camera really restricts the range of lenses you can use.

Alister...do you mean it restircts the 35mm lenses you can use...if so do you know which ones?

I've noticed some people using cheap Canon HV20s or HV30s as their decks to avoid wear on the XL-H1, although I'm not sure how that works with the different modes you mentioned. Also I believe there are HD and Flash memory solutions for the XL-H1a around now.

[Steve Phillipps]

Most 35mm lenses should mount OK on the XL cameras, it's just broadcast lenses with their grips that'll get in the way. The biggest frustration I'd think would be the lens that comes with the camera and its lack of proper focus and zoom controls, hence why it would be nice to able to replace it with a proper broadcast lens.
Steve

[Buck Forester]

This info is on another thread here about the Discovery bronze/silver/gold... not sure the source or if it's up to date or not but it has been discussed here.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/general-h...ide-lines.html

[Don Miller]

The OP seems to be a Canon shooter. The convenience of using the 5DII at this time far outweighs the negatives. By the time he really knows what he's doing Canon will be out with a more appropriate video camera (manual control, no 4gb limit).

Video head and sticks he's ready to go. 38 mbs of H264 should be good enough. Long Canon glass with image stabilization. Good high ASA/ISO performance.

As far as tape v file. In general tape still has an advantage for archival. But in wildlife so much time is spent recording hoping something happens, there's little reason to save 75% of what's shot. The faster response time of a non-tape camera doesn't matter much.

To start today I would buy RED. 4K with Nikon glass. The overhead of time and money to shoot wildlife is enough that 4K makes sense. One of those Scarlets would be ideal, but that's probably 2010.

I don't have an EX3, but the clarity is outstanding - as you guys know. I can't believe Discovery could have the slightest problem with the footage.

[Alister Chapman]

I don't think any of the current crop of DSLR's with video are suited to wildlife filming. They all have very big skew issues so following any moving animals or pans with long lenses are going to produce issues. Now I'm not a wildlife shooter and perhaps Steve will add to this but I would image you get 2 types of wildlife shot. The set up, sit and wait shot in which case a DSLR would be fine and the grab it quick before it runs away shot and in those scenarios a DSLR might not be so good.se

The OP was looking at the H1 where, like the EX if you use stills lenses you gain extra focal length over a DSLR. This can be a big advantage with wildlife.

[Steve Phillipps]

Don, don't forget that even with tape cameras you often get cache recording now so that you can just wait for the action then hit the button and you've captured it. Not that I think tape is a good choice, I think it's pretty much dead as a medium of choice.
I've not been in the slightest impressed with the DSLRs for video - common sense just tells you that there must be issues or Sony would have bought one out instead of the PDW700 or the EX cameras - why not have a very small, very high resolution camera for a fraction of the price? I'll tell you why, because it isn't going to do the job as well as the dedicated video camera. This is also why pro DSLRs haven't had video modes upto now and yet cheapy compact cameras have, because the video you'll get is OK for home movies of your kids etc., that the folks with the £300 digital compact want to shoot, whereas a pro with a £2000 DSLR wouldn't get pro video so why bother to include it.
The RED also has big issues for wildlife, not least of which is the fact that it takes 90 seconds to boot it up each time - oh, the bird's flown away! Also 4k is not quite 4k once you've gone through de-bayering etc., and for slomo you have to use 2k, which again after processing probably looks less good than a Varicam. Also the files take quite a bit of work to get them looking good from what I've seen - some stuff from RED looks excellent (on web only) while some looks muddy and horrible, I think it's a lot to do with the way they are post-processed. Other big problem is that it's such a new thing for the post houses and broadcasters that they're scared to death of it and know that it'll add so much to their tried and tested workflows that the amount of extra budget for post production will be unmanageable. I'm sure it'll get there eventually. Check out agb films, Andrew Graham Brown is using RED with cameraman Robin Cox for wildlife at the moment. I met up with him when I had my RED reservation and we talked it through, but then I found lots of issues for my type of work (plus an overnight 4 month delivery setback) and cancelled my reservation.
Steve