Arri kit for EX-1? at DVinfo.net

Arthur Hancock · November 9th, 2008, 10:30 AM

I'm looking at upgrading my lighting (I currently have 2 Riffa 55s, a Pro-light, a couple of Smith-Victor floods). I'm considering an Arri kit for interviews and general production.

If need be, can my Lowel lights be used (cut-in)with Arris? Can I use for example a Riffa as a key light for interviews with the Arris without conflict?

I'll be doing a museum shoot with a lot of items framed against a black backdrop.

I've been looking at these two Arri kits. Any suggestions as to which might prove the best for overall production using the EX-1?

Arri | Compact Fresnel Three Light Kit (220VAC) | 571859W | B&H

Arri | Fresnel Tungsten 3 Light Kit (120-230V) | 571979 | B&H

I live in Mayberry (mountains of NC) so renting is not really an option. I did see an Arri kit in use last week and was very impressed with the quality.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Jason Davenport · November 9th, 2008, 11:14 AM

You can mix in a shop light with Arri's, it doesn't matter. Light is light. It's how you use it. The Arri kit is a staple for interview lighting or whatever, they will last you a long time. I use both Fresnels and KinoFlo. Kinos for talent and fresnels for background effects. I use the Kinos because you always end up softening the keys and back light anyway, and it saves you time. And talent likes the Kinos because there cool and you don't have to worry about blowing breakers. Bottom line the will be fine for you. Key with your Rifa and use the Arris for whatever else.
Kino Flo | Interview Select 3 Fluorescent Light | KIT-3NT-S120

Christopher Witz · November 9th, 2008, 11:22 AM

have you taken a look at dvinfo member Richard Andrewski's lights?

coollights.biz

I own a few of his lights and they are fantastic! He has some arri-esq fresnels that are well built as well as an arsenal of flo and hmi lights.

He responds very fast if there is a problem and is second to none regarding customer service.

regarding mixing brands..... I think that as long as you stick with the same color temp and use hard or soft light in a matter that works for the situation or style your going for then it really does not matter. Of course not all brands are built to the same standards.... no one light or brand is perfect.

Arthur Hancock · November 9th, 2008, 12:38 PM

Thanks for the feedback!

I confess to a certain amount of infatuation with the cosmetics of the Arris--those are some good-looking lights! Especially when compared to the funky-looking, somewhat beat-up stuff I'm currently using. Is this unhealthy?

Robert C. Fisher · November 9th, 2008, 12:58 PM

Hi Arthur
I am also from near Mayberry, er Charlotte, but I now live and work in Los Angeles. My favorite interview kit is 1-2ft 4 bank kino flo with 2 tungsten tubes and 2 daylight tubes. I like using the mix with daylight since it adds a bit of warmth to the key side. I usually use bounce for the fill and 1 or 2 650 watt Tweenies for background and a 100 watt pepper for backlight. Very small kit and covers a lot of situations. I think the Arri lights are better since they have a superior mirror and lens but they can be a bit chintzy for professional/rental work but if you take good care of them they will last you a long time and in the end well worth the extra money invested. While I think the cool lights look ok the thing I have found is they and most other chinese made lighting gear don't hold up over the long haul. This is personal observation as to their construction. I personally have Mole Richardson lights and a menagerie of other units I use, some of which I made for very specific uses.

I have done jobs where I picked up cheap compact fluorescents and used them for interviews, times where I have not been able to travel with a lot of gear. A little creativity goes a long way with lighting. I have also shot major night exterior dialogue scenes with 2 or 3 small 1000 watt Par 64s and just plugging into local houses. Pretty difficult when shooting with ISO 100 film but it can be done.

As with anything in photography/cinematography I try to buy the best I can afford when I need it and if I buy cheap then upgrade before the gear wears out.

I may try some of the cool lights flos since they look ok and would serve my purpose on an upcoming job.

Cheers
Robert C. Fisher

George Strother · November 9th, 2008, 02:36 PM

I recently shot a project that had lots of black fabric products (jerseys, gloves, bags). We used the EX1 with Richard's fluorescent Coolights with 3200K tubes for key/fill/background and quartz for hair/rim.

Absolutely no infrared red/brown color shift in the black fabric products.

Doing a museum shoot I would use fluorescent Coolights because of their low infrared output, even if the museum didn't require a black fabric background. Kinoflo, Lowel and lots of others make equivalent fluorescent fixtures but Coolights are less expensive and work well.

Tungsten (any brand) makes a lot of infrared and it's tough or impossible to remove the red/brown color shift on dark or black objects, especially fabric. Museums tend to have no sense of humor at all about color shifts.

Leonard Levy · November 9th, 2008, 02:56 PM

George, that's very interesting about the infrared issue. Sounds liek an an easier fix than all the trouble i've been reading about with filters.

Have you done a side by side comparing kino's to tungstun on black fabrics.

Were you using the Diva lite type Kino's?

- Lenny

Arthur Hancock · November 9th, 2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Strother

I recently shot a project that had lots of black fabric products (jerseys, gloves, bags). We used the EX1 with Richard's fluorescent Coolights with 3200K tubes for key/fill/background and quartz for hair/rim.

Absolutely no infrared red/brown color shift in the black fabric products.

Doing a museum shoot I would use fluorescent Coolights because of their low infrared output, even if the museum didn't require a black fabric background. Kinoflo, Lowel and lots of others make equivalent fluorescent fixtures but Coolights are less expensive and work well.

Tungsten (any brand) makes a lot of infrared and it's tough or impossible to remove the red/brown color shift on dark or black objects, especially fabric. Museums tend to have no sense of humor at all about color shifts.

Thanks again for the replies. Can those Coollights really take a pounding? I've always been a big fan of the fluorescent approach. I was afraid the EX-1 IR problem would come up. I need to get down to Atlanta (it's closer than Charlotte, Robert) and do some serious testing.

My budget is really two thousand...stretched! This has been an expensive year (EX-1, Mac Pro, Mac Book Pro, 30' and 23" ACDs, Matrox MXO, Sound Devices 702, Rycote Windjammer, etc.)...with the financial meltdown to top it off. Great timing.

Ignorance is never bliss.

Arthur

George Strother · November 9th, 2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard Levy

George, that's very interesting about the infrared issue. Sounds liek an an easier fix than all the trouble i've been reading about with filters.

Unless you have to shoot outdoors in daylight. That's filter time.

Quote:

Have you done a side by side comparing kino's to tungstun on black fabrics.

Were you using the Diva lite type Kino's?

- Lenny

I did testing with the fluorescent Coolights using 3200K tubes and Lowel 3200K tungsten on black fabric samples prior to the shoot. Clean with the Coolights, horrible with the tungsten.

I also tested with my DeSisti HMI Fresnel lights - much better than quartz, not as good as fluorescent. About what I expected form the heat output from each type of light.

As Christopher posted, the link is coollights.biz

They make fluorescent, tungsten and HMI lights. For the least IR, choose fluorescents.

Arthur Hancock · November 11th, 2008, 10:44 AM

I just did a test shooting objects on a black velvet drape under a Rifa 55: great black. Then I did a shot of a slightly faded black T-shirt: brownish red, awful. Then my wife's black felt hat with a deep black ribbon and bow: felt was solid black, bow was purple. Yuck.

Those cool lights are starting to look better.

I'm also starting to think that a black background is going to be a little over the top.

Thanks to all for the feedback.

Arthur

Robert C. Fisher · November 11th, 2008, 10:51 AM

Arthur you can remedy the problem by using an IR filter when using tungsten lights and shooting in circumstances you can't control. The problem arises when shooting in low light with tungsten lights, most places these days. It also comes up when using a lot of ND with tungsten lights. If you can control your shooting circumstances then you can solve the problem by using fluorescent lights or daylight, HMI, lights.

Cheers
Robert C. Fisher

Arthur Hancock · November 11th, 2008, 11:39 AM

Thanks Robert,

No ND on my tests last night and the Rifa was a foot and a half away from the black fibers...light city! There's a huge thread on this issue--do you happen to know if there's an IR filter available that definitely gets the job done?

I like your idea of a fluorescent key, reflector, and tungsten back lights.

Best,

Arthur

Justin Benn · November 11th, 2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert C. Fisher

If you can control your shooting circumstances then you can solve the problem by using fluorescent lights or daylight, HMI, lights.

Cheers
Robert C. Fisher

That's is interesting - but may I add a note for those who travel towards the equator? Last month I shot an outdoor scene, morning (but full daylight), a smoke ceremony at the rainforest in the Northern Range of Trinidad, near the equator, and suffered the dreaded EX IR colour shifting issue. The sunlight was diffuse and mostly blocked by bamboo. We may get away with it as the scene will likely be cutaways with some stylised grading going on but I was horrified at what happened to the host's black top. It may be that at higher latitudes, where the light is bluer, relying on daylight will mitigate this IR effect but for those who shoot in warmer (luma and temperature) climes an IR filter may be the only way to go.

No such problems last week in the autumnal/wintery Luxembourg countryside.

Jus.

Malcolm Hamilton · November 11th, 2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthur Hancock

This has been an expensive year (EX-1, Mac Pro, Mac Book Pro, 30' and 23" ACDs

Anyone's budget would be stretched, getting a 30-foot cinema display. (remember the scene from Spinal Tap?)
Cheers, Malcolm

Alex Raskin · November 11th, 2008, 05:44 PM

From my experience, the black->brown shift occurs, depending on the material (different types of fabric) under both natural light and fluos.

So no-one is safe.

Just get the 486 filter, keep it on at all times, do the white balance through it, and forget about the IR contamination.

No more color shift of black surfaces with the 486 filter on.

Yes it's expensive.

November 9th, 2008, 10:30 AM	#1
Arthur Hancock Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Highlands North Carolina Posts: 69	Arri kit for EX-1? I'm looking at upgrading my lighting (I currently have 2 Riffa 55s, a Pro-light, a couple of Smith-Victor floods). I'm considering an Arri kit for interviews and general production. If need be, can my Lowel lights be used (cut-in)with Arris? Can I use for example a Riffa as a key light for interviews with the Arris without conflict? I'll be doing a museum shoot with a lot of items framed against a black backdrop. I've been looking at these two Arri kits. Any suggestions as to which might prove the best for overall production using the EX-1? Arri \| Compact Fresnel Three Light Kit (220VAC) \| 571859W \| B&H Arri \| Fresnel Tungsten 3 Light Kit (120-230V) \| 571979 \| B&H I live in Mayberry (mountains of NC) so renting is not really an option. I did see an Arri kit in use last week and was very impressed with the quality. Thanks for any suggestions!

November 9th, 2008, 11:14 AM	#2
Jason Davenport Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 131	You can mix in a shop light with Arri's, it doesn't matter. Light is light. It's how you use it. The Arri kit is a staple for interview lighting or whatever, they will last you a long time. I use both Fresnels and KinoFlo. Kinos for talent and fresnels for background effects. I use the Kinos because you always end up softening the keys and back light anyway, and it saves you time. And talent likes the Kinos because there cool and you don't have to worry about blowing breakers. Bottom line the will be fine for you. Key with your Rifa and use the Arris for whatever else. Kino Flo \| Interview Select 3 Fluorescent Light \| KIT-3NT-S120

November 9th, 2008, 11:22 AM	#3
Christopher Witz Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 591	have you taken a look at dvinfo member Richard Andrewski's lights? coollights.biz I own a few of his lights and they are fantastic! He has some arri-esq fresnels that are well built as well as an arsenal of flo and hmi lights. He responds very fast if there is a problem and is second to none regarding customer service. regarding mixing brands..... I think that as long as you stick with the same color temp and use hard or soft light in a matter that works for the situation or style your going for then it really does not matter. Of course not all brands are built to the same standards.... no one light or brand is perfect.

November 9th, 2008, 12:38 PM	#4
Arthur Hancock Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Highlands North Carolina Posts: 69	Thanks for the feedback! I confess to a certain amount of infatuation with the cosmetics of the Arris--those are some good-looking lights! Especially when compared to the funky-looking, somewhat beat-up stuff I'm currently using. Is this unhealthy?

November 9th, 2008, 12:58 PM	#5
Robert C. Fisher Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 55	Hi Arthur I am also from near Mayberry, er Charlotte, but I now live and work in Los Angeles. My favorite interview kit is 1-2ft 4 bank kino flo with 2 tungsten tubes and 2 daylight tubes. I like using the mix with daylight since it adds a bit of warmth to the key side. I usually use bounce for the fill and 1 or 2 650 watt Tweenies for background and a 100 watt pepper for backlight. Very small kit and covers a lot of situations. I think the Arri lights are better since they have a superior mirror and lens but they can be a bit chintzy for professional/rental work but if you take good care of them they will last you a long time and in the end well worth the extra money invested. While I think the cool lights look ok the thing I have found is they and most other chinese made lighting gear don't hold up over the long haul. This is personal observation as to their construction. I personally have Mole Richardson lights and a menagerie of other units I use, some of which I made for very specific uses. I have done jobs where I picked up cheap compact fluorescents and used them for interviews, times where I have not been able to travel with a lot of gear. A little creativity goes a long way with lighting. I have also shot major night exterior dialogue scenes with 2 or 3 small 1000 watt Par 64s and just plugging into local houses. Pretty difficult when shooting with ISO 100 film but it can be done. As with anything in photography/cinematography I try to buy the best I can afford when I need it and if I buy cheap then upgrade before the gear wears out. I may try some of the cool lights flos since they look ok and would serve my purpose on an upcoming job. Cheers Robert C. Fisher

November 9th, 2008, 02:36 PM	#6
George Strother Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 204	I recently shot a project that had lots of black fabric products (jerseys, gloves, bags). We used the EX1 with Richard's fluorescent Coolights with 3200K tubes for key/fill/background and quartz for hair/rim. Absolutely no infrared red/brown color shift in the black fabric products. Doing a museum shoot I would use fluorescent Coolights because of their low infrared output, even if the museum didn't require a black fabric background. Kinoflo, Lowel and lots of others make equivalent fluorescent fixtures but Coolights are less expensive and work well. Tungsten (any brand) makes a lot of infrared and it's tough or impossible to remove the red/brown color shift on dark or black objects, especially fabric. Museums tend to have no sense of humor at all about color shifts.

November 9th, 2008, 02:56 PM	#7
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	George, that's very interesting about the infrared issue. Sounds liek an an easier fix than all the trouble i've been reading about with filters. Have you done a side by side comparing kino's to tungstun on black fabrics. Were you using the Diva lite type Kino's? - Lenny

November 11th, 2008, 10:44 AM	#10
Arthur Hancock Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Highlands North Carolina Posts: 69	I just did a test shooting objects on a black velvet drape under a Rifa 55: great black. Then I did a shot of a slightly faded black T-shirt: brownish red, awful. Then my wife's black felt hat with a deep black ribbon and bow: felt was solid black, bow was purple. Yuck. Those cool lights are starting to look better. I'm also starting to think that a black background is going to be a little over the top. Thanks to all for the feedback. Arthur

November 11th, 2008, 10:51 AM	#11
Robert C. Fisher Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 55	Arthur you can remedy the problem by using an IR filter when using tungsten lights and shooting in circumstances you can't control. The problem arises when shooting in low light with tungsten lights, most places these days. It also comes up when using a lot of ND with tungsten lights. If you can control your shooting circumstances then you can solve the problem by using fluorescent lights or daylight, HMI, lights. Cheers Robert C. Fisher

November 11th, 2008, 11:39 AM	#12
Arthur Hancock Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Highlands North Carolina Posts: 69	Thanks Robert, No ND on my tests last night and the Rifa was a foot and a half away from the black fibers...light city! There's a huge thread on this issue--do you happen to know if there's an IR filter available that definitely gets the job done? I like your idea of a fluorescent key, reflector, and tungsten back lights. Best, Arthur

November 11th, 2008, 05:44 PM	#15
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	From my experience, the black->brown shift occurs, depending on the material (different types of fabric) under both natural light and fluos. So no-one is safe. Just get the 486 filter, keep it on at all times, do the white balance through it, and forget about the IR contamination. No more color shift of black surfaces with the 486 filter on. Yes it's expensive.