Playback stutters at DVinfo.net

Chuck Spaulding · October 27th, 2008, 02:00 PM

We recently purchased a couple EX3's and we're doing some tests before using them in production. I'm the post production supervisor not a DP.

The DP decided that he wants to use 1080P30 which is fine by me. However in the first test he shot with everything on auto [just to see what it would do] 1080P30 and the shutter was 1/60.

When he does a slow pan across the room on a fairly wide shot it stutters a bit. Is this a progressive issue? Should we use a different shutter speed? Is it possibly an incorrect setting in FCP?

I realize this is a bit vague but I thought I would start here in hopes that someone who uses FCP would say "push this button" and all your troubles will be solved...

Anyway I'm glad to provide more information if someone needs it.

Thanks

Steve Phillipps · October 27th, 2008, 02:07 PM

Sounds pretty much like what I saw (see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...ing-birds.html) but lots of people say it's normal. I've not used the EX cameras seriously so would bow out vs those who have, but I didn't like what I saw 1 bit - and I'm used to progressive with Sony 750 and Varicam.
Steve

Dean Sensui · October 27th, 2008, 03:54 PM

Stuttering is common to anything shot progressively as well as to film, which is identical to progressive because it's recording entire single frames and not interlaced frames.

Interlaced provides more images per second (60 fields per second) and looks smoother. Progressive provides fewer frames per second and breaks down movement into larger intervals: 30 per second instead of 60 as it would be with interlaced video. Thus the "stutter".

Adjusting shutter speeds can increase or reduce the apparent stutter but will not get rid of it entirely.

Steven Thomas · October 27th, 2008, 04:08 PM

The large problem is that many judge motion on their PC LCD. Mine stutters more than normal progressive regardless what camera's footage I'm viewing on my system.

When I create the final master may it be DVD, BluRay, ect.. it plays back perfect on an HDTV.

Steve Phillipps · October 30th, 2008, 09:29 AM

I saw "stuttering" on TV screen and also on interlaced I shot with an EX1. I'm gonna do some EX3 and PDW700 side by side tests soon, will post results and hopefully clips if I can figure it out!
Steve

Steven Thomas · October 30th, 2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

I saw "stuttering" on TV screen and also on interlaced I shot with an EX1. I'm gonna do some EX3 and PDW700 side by side tests soon, will post results and hopefully clips if I can figure it out!
Steve

How were you viewing it on your "TV screen", mastered to a media, or direct from the camera?

Steve Phillipps · October 30th, 2008, 09:54 AM

Straight from the camera, presumably the purest way?
Steve

Steven Thomas · October 30th, 2008, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

Straight from the camera, presumably the purest way?
Steve

Yes, you would thinks so..
But, for some odd reason, it's different?

I noticed the difference when I first bought the camera almost a year ago.
Oddly, my JVC HD100 did the same thing. When viewed straight to my set, it had more judder than normal... very strange.

Has anyone else seen this difference with the EX1?

When I burn a BluRay, motion is normal. 24P has the normal 24P motion, and 1080 60i is smooth and sharp during pans. I'm not sure why the cadence appears to be different?

Someone else please compare this for my sanity! LOL
Burn a DVD, or BluRay and compare to direct from the camera.

Jason Bodnar · October 30th, 2008, 11:13 AM

Steven, you are entirely correct... I shoot mostly 1080p and 720p overcranked and when previewing footage back on high end LCD or directly thru the camera to HDTV it almost looks like 24p judder sometimes...can look like footage is stuttering as described by Chuck. for real world results I render and master to Blu-ray disc or even Blu-ray format file and play back on PS3 and the results are absolutely amazing and perfectly smooth... and I am shooting DH MTB and Motocross with a lot of fast motion and pans.

Steven Thomas · October 30th, 2008, 11:24 AM

Thanks Jason.
Maybe someone has an idea why the difference.

Buck Forester · October 30th, 2008, 01:16 PM

Steve T and Jason, are you saying you see judder viewing unedited footage on your screen, but if you render and master, it goes away? Is this so even when viewing it again on the same LCD screen (or HDTV)?

Steven Thomas · October 30th, 2008, 02:41 PM

Yes, burn a BluRay and compare to the same video direct video out to your HDTV.
The BluRay has normal motion.

Jason Bodnar · October 30th, 2008, 02:45 PM

yes burn a blu-ray or at least a Blu-ray file to playback on a PS3 if you have one.

Chuck Spaulding · October 30th, 2008, 03:16 PM

Thanks everyone.

We would like to be creating Blu-Ray DVD's early next year. Jason, I'm interested in your workflow, especially your use of PS3.

We can make a different thread if you like.

Thanks

Jason Bodnar · October 30th, 2008, 03:35 PM

Chuck, basically for Blu-ray file playback on PS3, I do the following. My NLE of choice now is Vegas but I still use FCP on occasion, but I use Vegas for this.... This is not exact as I am not in front of my machine but this is pretty close as far as I recall.

1.1920x1080 project select render as 1920x1080 Blu-ray 60i template
2. Customize template to progressive instead of interlace.
3. set type to MPEG 2
4. Set render to best
5. Set quality to best which is 31 I think
6. Audio must be set to include if you want it.
7. Under system tab you can select transport stream which will make the file a .m2t
8. Render
9. My last test preview was just under 12 minutes and file size was 2.5+ GB

Once complete create Folder called VIDEO place your .m2t file in it and copy it to a USB stick then you can plug it into your PS3 and copy it onto the PS3 harddrive then it will show up under the videos folder on the PS3.

You can also burn a normal DVD with AVCHD which is a Blu-Ray format with a bit rate of up to 24 Mbit/sec and play it back on the PS3 or so people say, I have not tried that yet but have heard it works well also.

Works Awsome!!

Let me know if you need specific instructions and I will explain in detail when I get back to the edit bay.

October 27th, 2008, 02:00 PM	#1
Chuck Spaulding Trustee Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Thousand Oaks Posts: 1,104	Playback stutters We recently purchased a couple EX3's and we're doing some tests before using them in production. I'm the post production supervisor not a DP. The DP decided that he wants to use 1080P30 which is fine by me. However in the first test he shot with everything on auto [just to see what it would do] 1080P30 and the shutter was 1/60. When he does a slow pan across the room on a fairly wide shot it stutters a bit. Is this a progressive issue? Should we use a different shutter speed? Is it possibly an incorrect setting in FCP? I realize this is a bit vague but I thought I would start here in hopes that someone who uses FCP would say "push this button" and all your troubles will be solved... Anyway I'm glad to provide more information if someone needs it. Thanks

October 27th, 2008, 03:54 PM	#3
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Stuttering is common to anything shot progressively as well as to film, which is identical to progressive because it's recording entire single frames and not interlaced frames. Interlaced provides more images per second (60 fields per second) and looks smoother. Progressive provides fewer frames per second and breaks down movement into larger intervals: 30 per second instead of 60 as it would be with interlaced video. Thus the "stutter". Adjusting shutter speeds can increase or reduce the apparent stutter but will not get rid of it entirely. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

October 27th, 2008, 02:07 PM	#2
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Sounds pretty much like what I saw (see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...ing-birds.html) but lots of people say it's normal. I've not used the EX cameras seriously so would bow out vs those who have, but I didn't like what I saw 1 bit - and I'm used to progressive with Sony 750 and Varicam. Steve

October 27th, 2008, 04:08 PM	#4
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	The large problem is that many judge motion on their PC LCD. Mine stutters more than normal progressive regardless what camera's footage I'm viewing on my system. When I create the final master may it be DVD, BluRay, ect.. it plays back perfect on an HDTV.

October 30th, 2008, 09:29 AM	#5
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	I saw "stuttering" on TV screen and also on interlaced I shot with an EX1. I'm gonna do some EX3 and PDW700 side by side tests soon, will post results and hopefully clips if I can figure it out! Steve

October 30th, 2008, 09:54 AM	#7
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Straight from the camera, presumably the purest way? Steve

October 30th, 2008, 11:13 AM	#9
Jason Bodnar Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 376	Steven, you are entirely correct... I shoot mostly 1080p and 720p overcranked and when previewing footage back on high end LCD or directly thru the camera to HDTV it almost looks like 24p judder sometimes...can look like footage is stuttering as described by Chuck. for real world results I render and master to Blu-ray disc or even Blu-ray format file and play back on PS3 and the results are absolutely amazing and perfectly smooth... and I am shooting DH MTB and Motocross with a lot of fast motion and pans.

October 30th, 2008, 11:24 AM	#10
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Thanks Jason. Maybe someone has an idea why the difference.

October 30th, 2008, 01:16 PM	#11
Buck Forester Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: California Posts: 230	Steve T and Jason, are you saying you see judder viewing unedited footage on your screen, but if you render and master, it goes away? Is this so even when viewing it again on the same LCD screen (or HDTV)?

October 30th, 2008, 02:41 PM	#12
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Yes, burn a BluRay and compare to the same video direct video out to your HDTV. The BluRay has normal motion.

October 30th, 2008, 02:45 PM	#13
Jason Bodnar Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 376	yes burn a blu-ray or at least a Blu-ray file to playback on a PS3 if you have one.

October 30th, 2008, 03:16 PM	#14
Chuck Spaulding Trustee Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Thousand Oaks Posts: 1,104	Thanks everyone. We would like to be creating Blu-Ray DVD's early next year. Jason, I'm interested in your workflow, especially your use of PS3. We can make a different thread if you like. Thanks

October 30th, 2008, 03:35 PM	#15
Jason Bodnar Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 376	Chuck, basically for Blu-ray file playback on PS3, I do the following. My NLE of choice now is Vegas but I still use FCP on occasion, but I use Vegas for this.... This is not exact as I am not in front of my machine but this is pretty close as far as I recall. 1.1920x1080 project select render as 1920x1080 Blu-ray 60i template 2. Customize template to progressive instead of interlace. 3. set type to MPEG 2 4. Set render to best 5. Set quality to best which is 31 I think 6. Audio must be set to include if you want it. 7. Under system tab you can select transport stream which will make the file a .m2t 8. Render 9. My last test preview was just under 12 minutes and file size was 2.5+ GB Once complete create Folder called VIDEO place your .m2t file in it and copy it to a USB stick then you can plug it into your PS3 and copy it onto the PS3 harddrive then it will show up under the videos folder on the PS3. You can also burn a normal DVD with AVCHD which is a Blu-Ray format with a bit rate of up to 24 Mbit/sec and play it back on the PS3 or so people say, I have not tried that yet but have heard it works well also. Works Awsome!! Let me know if you need specific instructions and I will explain in detail when I get back to the edit bay.