Shooting 1080 30p (NTSC) in a PAL country at DVinfo.net

Ofer Levy · October 3rd, 2008, 10:00 AM

Hi guys,

Please can anyone let me know whether it makes sense to shoot 1080 30p (NTSC) in a PAL country, assuming that the footage will be sold internationally to TV channels? With my very limited knowledge I assume it is better to capture 30 frames and get rid of 5 in post for PAL countries.

Am I wrong in here?
Please let me know as I am going to start shooting a major project soon.

Thanks !

Ofer Levy

Sydeny

Bob Hart · October 3rd, 2008, 10:14 AM

If you shoot 30 frames you will experience a flicker problem anytime you go near flourescent lights which are powered by our 50Hz AC. With 25P or 50i you don't encounter the same problem.

Depending on how perfect you want the result to be, you might be able to live with flicker on things such as shopfront windows in late afternoons - early evenings.

Inside shopping centres or large buildings might be a bigger problem as 50hz AC will be powering nearly all your ambient lighting source.

David Schmerin · October 3rd, 2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ofer Levy

Hi guys,

Please can anyone let me know whether it makes sense to shoot 1080 30p (NTSC) in a PAL country, assuming that the footage will be sold internationally to TV channels? With my very limited knowledge I assume it is better to capture 30 frames and get rid of 5 in post for PAL countries.

Am I wrong in here?
Please let me know as I am going to start shooting a major project soon.

Thanks !

Ofer Levy

Sydeny

Ofer,

Being from Las Vegas and having just tried to film a winery in Europe, here is what we found...

Anything shot under Natural light like farm workers in the field worked just great and life was wonderful. However, when we moved inside to film the grape pressing operations, life fell apart completely.

Seems we had not take into consideration what the effect of lights running at 50hz would do when filming at 60hz. The manual for the EX-3 suggests shooting 30p at 1/100th but this proved to be way to dark. One suggestion was to use battery operated lights for fill. The other suggestion was to shoot in PAL, and slow from 25fps to 24fps for the NTSC market.

Really looking forward to seeing your project,

David Schmerin

Alister Chapman · October 3rd, 2008, 11:08 AM

It really depends on your target customers and how much time or money you are prepared to spend on frame rate conversion. If you just drop the 5 extra frames you will get very jerky playback which would probably get rejected by many broadcasters. You could do a software based, motion predictive frame rate conversion. There are many software packages that can do this, but it is time consuming often taking hours to convert just a few minutes. The other way is to get the footage run through a good standards converter, but this won't come cheap.

The other option (and this is what I do), is to shoot 25P. Straight away your material is OK for PAL countries. For NTSC countries simply slow the footage down by 4% to get 24P. As David said above most HD broadcasters will take 24P material. The audio pitch shift is minimal. Many films shown in PAL countries on TV are sped up 4% to get 25fps from 24fps and very few people ever notice. If you must go to 30P, slow the footage down to 24P then add pull-up frames to get to 30P.

Also worthy of note is that it is much easier to frame rate convert progressive material than interlaced.

David Issko · October 3rd, 2008, 03:46 PM

Ofer,

This may sound like a very silly statement & question and please excuse me for probably stating what you already know, but the cameras we buy here do not record in 30p or 60i, so if you wanted to record in that way, do you have access to an NTSC area camera?

Anyway, what the others said holds true and the 25p/24p & 24p/25p has been a topic of discussion on other threads & forums. The conversion does not seem to create any issues and would really be your best of both worlds (NTSC & PAL) option. As Alister has posted, shoot 25p, which is very nice anyway so you are PAL area covered if the program was to be aired in PAL areas & convert to 24p for the NTSC area.

So, our 25p/50i cameras can really cover both areas anyway, which is great.

All the best with the proposed project.
David Issko

Ola Christoffersson · October 3rd, 2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Issko

Ofer,

This may sound like a very silly statement & question and please excuse me for probably stating what you already know, but the cameras we buy here do not record in 30p or 60i, so if you wanted to record in that way, do you have access to an NTSC area camera?

Yes, the EX1 and EX3 does record in both 60i,50i and 30p and 25p. There is only one international version of both of the cameras.

David Issko · October 3rd, 2008, 04:42 PM

You know, I set my camera for 25p on day one and never knew it could do 60i & 30p. In fact I do not remember ever seeing those options. Probably because I had a single destination in life to set the EX3 to 25p.

Pardon my error.

David Issko · October 3rd, 2008, 04:53 PM

Just checked the menu options and found PAL & NTSC options. Never saw it because my camera was initially set to PAL and all I did was navigate to P & I settings and changed over to 25p. This was about 4 weeks ago and I have left the camera in that mode ever since. Never navigated into the NTSC world.

Ofer Levy · October 3rd, 2008, 07:14 PM

Thanks guys for your valuable input.

25p will be the way to go for me then.

Cheers,

Ofer

October 3rd, 2008, 10:00 AM	#1
Ofer Levy Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney-Australia Posts: 443	Shooting 1080 30p (NTSC) in a PAL country Hi guys, Please can anyone let me know whether it makes sense to shoot 1080 30p (NTSC) in a PAL country, assuming that the footage will be sold internationally to TV channels? With my very limited knowledge I assume it is better to capture 30 frames and get rid of 5 in post for PAL countries. Am I wrong in here? Please let me know as I am going to start shooting a major project soon. Thanks ! Ofer Levy Sydeny

October 3rd, 2008, 11:08 AM	#4
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	It really depends on your target customers and how much time or money you are prepared to spend on frame rate conversion. If you just drop the 5 extra frames you will get very jerky playback which would probably get rejected by many broadcasters. You could do a software based, motion predictive frame rate conversion. There are many software packages that can do this, but it is time consuming often taking hours to convert just a few minutes. The other way is to get the footage run through a good standards converter, but this won't come cheap. The other option (and this is what I do), is to shoot 25P. Straight away your material is OK for PAL countries. For NTSC countries simply slow the footage down by 4% to get 24P. As David said above most HD broadcasters will take 24P material. The audio pitch shift is minimal. Many films shown in PAL countries on TV are sped up 4% to get 25fps from 24fps and very few people ever notice. If you must go to 30P, slow the footage down to 24P then add pull-up frames to get to 30P. Also worthy of note is that it is much easier to frame rate convert progressive material than interlaced. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

October 3rd, 2008, 03:46 PM	#5
David Issko Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 393	Ofer, This may sound like a very silly statement & question and please excuse me for probably stating what you already know, but the cameras we buy here do not record in 30p or 60i, so if you wanted to record in that way, do you have access to an NTSC area camera? Anyway, what the others said holds true and the 25p/24p & 24p/25p has been a topic of discussion on other threads & forums. The conversion does not seem to create any issues and would really be your best of both worlds (NTSC & PAL) option. As Alister has posted, shoot 25p, which is very nice anyway so you are PAL area covered if the program was to be aired in PAL areas & convert to 24p for the NTSC area. So, our 25p/50i cameras can really cover both areas anyway, which is great. All the best with the proposed project. David Issko __________________ David Issko Edit 1 Video Productions

October 3rd, 2008, 04:42 PM	#7
David Issko Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 393	You know, I set my camera for 25p on day one and never knew it could do 60i & 30p. In fact I do not remember ever seeing those options. Probably because I had a single destination in life to set the EX3 to 25p. Pardon my error. __________________ David Issko Edit 1 Video Productions

October 3rd, 2008, 04:53 PM	#8
David Issko Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 393	Just checked the menu options and found PAL & NTSC options. Never saw it because my camera was initially set to PAL and all I did was navigate to P & I settings and changed over to 25p. This was about 4 weeks ago and I have left the camera in that mode ever since. Never navigated into the NTSC world. __________________ David Issko Edit 1 Video Productions

October 3rd, 2008, 10:14 AM	#2
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,476	If you shoot 30 frames you will experience a flicker problem anytime you go near flourescent lights which are powered by our 50Hz AC. With 25P or 50i you don't encounter the same problem. Depending on how perfect you want the result to be, you might be able to live with flicker on things such as shopfront windows in late afternoons - early evenings. Inside shopping centres or large buildings might be a bigger problem as 50hz AC will be powering nearly all your ambient lighting source.

October 3rd, 2008, 07:14 PM	#9
Ofer Levy Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney-Australia Posts: 443	Thanks guys for your valuable input. 25p will be the way to go for me then. Cheers, Ofer