SDHC substitute for SxS cards

John Hedgecoe · September 16th, 2008, 04:02 PM

Although not SDHC, I thought some might find this interesting.

Today I received a Transcend 16GB 300x UDMA CompactFlash card. I have the Delkin ExpressCard34 UDMA CompactFlash adapter, so I gave them the Disk read/write test.

Here are my results...

Sustained data rate: Read: 44.54 to 44.61 MB/s Write: 33.39 to 34.92 MB/s
512K Read: 24.84 to 25.81 MB/s Write: 22.60 to 23.08 MB/s
4K Read: 0.484 to 0.529 MB/s Write: 1.093 to 1.114 MB/s

Have to say I was surprised by the low values on the 4K read/write. But then, how many 4K files do we write with this camera, so probably not an issue.

The key here is that the Delkin adapter uses the PCIe bus, not USB and the CF card is UDMA. I don't think there is an equivalent to UDMA in SDHC.

Oh, in case anyone is interested, I performed the test using the HP 2133 mini-note PC (1.2GHz), Windows XP Pro SP3.

Steven Thomas · September 16th, 2008, 05:09 PM

Thanks John.

The 4K random read looks a little bit odd, but (based on THIS same test) all the write values are faster than the Sony SxS cards.

I believe I tried the Delkin expresscard to CF adaptor and it fails with a media incompataibility type error in the EX1.

I was using different compact flash memory. Did you try yours in the EX1?

Based on your numbers, it sure looks like it would work with the EX1. Well, assuming you can get it to work with the EX1 and also work at those data rates.

Keith Moreau · September 16th, 2008, 06:15 PM

I have an EX1 with the updated 1.1.1 firmware (just updated). I also have the Kensington SD-ExpressCard adapter 33407US. Brand new out of the package, I inserted the new (and presumably unformatted) Transcend 8GB SDHC card into the Expresscard adapter, and the Expresscard adapter into the EX1.

The EX1 asked if I wanted to format the card...

Oh boy, YES!

It formatted.... 10% 20%...79% and just stayed there. For minutes. Other camera functions worked but I could not do anything about the stuck formatting.

Finally I tried to turn the power off on the camera. Nothing. Wouldn't turn off. Oh, no.

I then removed the power by disconnecting the battery.

Restored power. EX1 came up! Sigh of relief...

Maybe it was a glitch, I'll try formatting it again...

Try to switch to slot B containing the card. Can't do it. The EX1 doesn't even recognize there is a card in there.

Maybe I'll try to reformat the card in a computer.

Take out the SDHC card, put it into a USB SD adapter into my Mac. Mac doesn't recognize the card.

Put the card into another device (Panasonic SD1 camcorder) try to format the card, SD1 complains can't format the card.

So...

Either the card was defective (as I didn't try formatting it in a non-EX1 device), or the EX1 - Kensington adapter combo 'bricked' it. I have a few other SDHC cards but... not sure how many I want to experiment with. Also on this thread I don't know if I've seen anybody explicity saying they were able to format the card in an EX1 and Kensington adapter.

Also the Kensington adapter with SDHC card doesn't allow for the EX1 SxS door to close, another inconvenience.

So, my questions are:

Any got this combo to format even (let alone record)?
Any other Adapter and Card that works that also would allow me to close the SxS door?
Are there diminishing returns with this endeavor?

Steven Thomas · September 16th, 2008, 07:33 PM

Keith,
I ve been there... exact same error testing different memory.
There's nothing wrong with your memory short of it's to slow for the EX1.

I've had some memory almost work fine and enable me to record 20 minutes of 1080P
without an error.

I have the NEW SanDisk Extreme III 16GB 30MB/s coming in maybe by thursday.
I'll report back.

Keith Moreau · September 16th, 2008, 11:35 PM

Steven,

Thanks for the reply...

However, actually there is something wrong with at least the Transcend 8GB card I tried to format in the EX1, as it stopped at 79% and wouldn't go further and hung my EX1 so I couldn't even power it off. When I removed the battery to get the EX1 out of that state the Transcend card was hosed. I mean it would not function in any device I tried. Either nothing recognized it or wouldn't format it.

Do you have a EX1 and the Kensington Expresscard adapter and have you successfully formatted a SDHC card with it? If so then I will try again with another card. I'm also going to be getting the Sandisk Extreme 16GB 30MB/S card soon. You first!

Steven Thomas · September 17th, 2008, 06:04 AM

No I have an AFT 7-in-one adapter and I've seen it stop at exactly 79% on a different SDHC card. I do not have a transcend to try.

Like yours, it would not power off. I ended up pulling out the adapter which freed up the camera.

IMO, it's not your card or adapter. The speed of the Transcend SDHC card is to slow.

Paul Newman · September 17th, 2008, 07:28 AM

Has anyone tested this:

SANDISK EXTREME IV CF 8GB or 16GB cards?

SanDisk Extreme IV CompactFlash card is now available at a new level of performance at 45MB/s read/write speed. SanDisk Extreme® IV CompactFlash memory cards are the new, industry leading choice for professional photographers who demand one of the fastest, most rugged, most reliable cards on the market. They feature the tested durability and professional-level services that have become synonymous with the SanDisk Extreme product family.

Paul

John Hedgecoe · September 17th, 2008, 07:42 AM

No, I have not had a chance to try it on the EX1 yet. My EX1 is in Bangkok, while I am currently in Florida. My firmware is 1.02, so I need to have the firmware upgrade before I can try. I'll have to see if I can find someone in Bangkok to do it, and I need the battery drain issue fixed too. I head back Oct 1, so I'll head off to a store in Fortune Mall that sells the EX1 and see if they can point me to a Sony repair facility that can handle the upgrade.

Delkin makes (made?) two expresscard34 to Cf adapters. They can be told apart by the color of the CF end. One is white plastic and that one uses the USB bus, while the other adapter is black plastic and it uses the PCIe bus. Mine is the black one.

While I am curious to see if it works, it is not something I would actually want to use. It is just too vulnerable.

Steven Thomas · September 17th, 2008, 08:52 AM

The one I tried had the black end and was the PCIe based one.
Again, it may of been the memory card I tried.

I posted the details of the CF card in one of these threads.

Steven Thomas · September 17th, 2008, 08:58 AM

We need to find an expresscard adaptor to CF that works on the EX1 first.

Keith Moreau · September 17th, 2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

No I have an AFT 7-in-one adapter and I've seen it stop at exactly 79% on a different SDHC card. I do not have a transcend to try.

Like yours, it would not power off. I ended up pulling out the adapter which freed up the camera.

IMO, it's not your card or adapter. The speed of the Transcend SDHC card is to slow.

Steven, maybe I made a mistake by removing the battery from the EX1 while it was in this state, I didn't just pull the card out. The problem is... now the Transcend SDHC card is totally unusable, not just in the EX1 now but in every SDHC device I tried (computer, cameras). My question is to you on the SDHC card where you pulled it when it froze on the EX1 at 79%, did the card work for you in other devices at that point or was the card essentially destroyed?

BTW, I did order the AFT 7-in-one adapter adapter and just received the Sandisk Extreme III 30MB/Second edition. Dare I try it with my Kensington Adapter or am I asking for trouble, this card is about $150 as opposed to the ridiculously cheap Transcend 8GB ($20?).

Has anybody gotten the Kensington Expresscard adapter to work with the EX1? I have a feeling there might be something in the adapter that is different. For example some people have complained that the Kensington adapter keeps the Mac from sleeping if inserted while trying to sleep the mac (I experienced this), whereas it's not a problem with the AFT adapter - so there are some differences in how the host computer/device sees the cards somehow, it's not just a straight line from card to Express socket, there is some circuitry in-between.

Steven Thomas · September 17th, 2008, 02:09 PM

Thanks Keith.
When the 79% happened with my AFT expresscard and SDHC, I was able to reformat the card with my PC. I tried it again... and same 79% lockup. I reformatted the card and returned it.

If you want to wait for me to try BOTH the AFT and Kensington with my extreme, I will be trying this tonight. It's up to you.

Keith Moreau · September 17th, 2008, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

Thanks Keith.
When the 79% happened with my AFT expresscard and SDHC, I was able to reformat the card with my PC. I tried it again... and same 79% lockup. I reformatted the card and returned it.

If you want to wait for me to try BOTH the AFT and Kensington with my extreme, I will be trying this tonight. It's up to you.

Steven

Since you're willing, I'll let you try it out and let me know how the Kensington + Sandisk Extreme III SDHC card works. Thanks for all the great info and help. Ultimately if it does work I'll use the AFT adapter since it's lower profile will let me close the SxS door but I don't have the AFT yet).

Steven Thomas · September 17th, 2008, 09:42 PM

Latest Update for EX1 only (No EX3 to try):

GOOD NEWS SO FAR!

First of all:
It's important to understand that I've only done one 3HR session of testing.
Please do not run out and buy this combo until I've had time to run it through longer testing.

Read on...

The only bad news is I could not get the AFT PROExpress-7 expresscard to work with the new Extreme III 30MB/s. It had a media error. Oddly, the very first time I tried the combo, it asked to be formatted, then failed with the media error. After that, It never gave the format option again, even after formatting the card on the PC and trying again.

Here's my CrystalDiskMark data rates for the NEW Extreme:

SanDisk SDHC 16GB Extreme III 30MB/s

Sustained data rate: Read: 19.06MB/s Write: 15.81MB/s
Random 512K file: Read: 18.76MB/s Write: 3.703MB/s
Random 4K file: Read: 3.581MB/s to 6.46MB/s Write: 0.036MB/s

Since all the values were very close to each other, I did not write down a min max range.

My understanding is in order to actually get the new SanDisk Extreme III manufacture data rate claim (30MB/s), special device firmware must be programmed. The new Nikon D90 has just that. In fact, SanDisk designed the new Extreme III (30MB/s) for the D90.

Having said that, I did notice that the cards data rates are very repeatable. Also, the 512K random data rate at 3.7MB/s is the highest I've measure and seen for SDHC cards.

I'm not sure how high the Sony EX1 data rate may momentarily burst when using HQ mode, but based on the sustained 15.81 MB writes and 3.7MB/s 512K file random writes it appears it may be fast enough for all HQ modes. The sustained data writes were very repeatable. This along with a bit quicker random writes, may of been the ticket.

It is not fast enough to run S&Q modes, but Sony's new SxS video capture hard drive is neither.

Here's the ONLY problem, it works with the Kensington Expresscard which with the SDHC card inserted will not allow the EX1 memory door to close. It only misses it by a mm or so... bummer.

Having said that, for 16GB:

1, Kensington 7-in-1 Media Reader $ 36 (USD)
1, SanDisk Extreme III 16GB 30MB/s version $129 (USD)
______________________________________________
Total USD: $165.00 (USD) !!!

Not bad for being able to record EX1 HQ modes.

Again, I'd wait until you hear more from me. I want to test it everyday for a week or so.

So far, I've been trying different record modes. I had one run recording over 40 minutes no issues..
Also, I've been starting and stopping recording after only a second or two. This has made my previous memory cards/AFT reader fail.
Also, for some reason 1080i would fail easier.

Right now, after three hours of testing, I have not had one error (knock on wood..LOL).
It's looking good...
Now, only if the damn memory door would close!

Look for further updates.

Keith Moreau · September 18th, 2008, 03:01 AM

Hi Steven

OK, I waited for you to test my combo, EX1+Kensington Adapter+Extreme III 30MB edition, so I went ahead and tried it.

Put card into EX1 "B" slot, EX1 asked to format, formatted in an instant.

Switched to card B for some 1080 30P format shooting, Worked flawlessly as far as I could tell. For a lark I tried using Slow Motion, 720 24P cranked down to 60FPS. "Media Error" on the LCD. Couldn't use the card, so switched to card A where I still had the SxS 8GB, pulled out the Kensington+Extreme, turned of slo motion, and it went back to working flawlessly. Shot about 5 minutes or so without a glitch, didn't seem like the EX1 knew it wasn't a SxS card.

So, while the door doesn't close, if it's in slot B, it's not the end of the world. I can see Is there another Expresscard/SDHC adapter that might allow the slot to close and also works?

I can see this working for gigs where you can do the slomo shots if you need them on Card A, and use card B for the normal motion shots (hell you get 1 hour out of a 16GB card). A hell of a lot easier than swapping cards into your laptop in the middle of a shoot, and of course about 1/10 the price of SxS. Only drawback is the door and the fact that the SDHC cards are kind of tiny and easy to lose (I have before... bummer).

Thanks for the testing Steven, let me know how it goes and if you can find out how to turn the card into turbo mode with the EX1!

September 16th, 2008, 06:15 PM	#123
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	Bricked my Transcend 8GB SDHC card... I have an EX1 with the updated 1.1.1 firmware (just updated). I also have the Kensington SD-ExpressCard adapter 33407US. Brand new out of the package, I inserted the new (and presumably unformatted) Transcend 8GB SDHC card into the Expresscard adapter, and the Expresscard adapter into the EX1. The EX1 asked if I wanted to format the card... Oh boy, YES! It formatted.... 10% 20%...79% and just stayed there. For minutes. Other camera functions worked but I could not do anything about the stuck formatting. Finally I tried to turn the power off on the camera. Nothing. Wouldn't turn off. Oh, no. I then removed the power by disconnecting the battery. Restored power. EX1 came up! Sigh of relief... Maybe it was a glitch, I'll try formatting it again... Try to switch to slot B containing the card. Can't do it. The EX1 doesn't even recognize there is a card in there. Maybe I'll try to reformat the card in a computer. Take out the SDHC card, put it into a USB SD adapter into my Mac. Mac doesn't recognize the card. Put the card into another device (Panasonic SD1 camcorder) try to format the card, SD1 complains can't format the card. So... Either the card was defective (as I didn't try formatting it in a non-EX1 device), or the EX1 - Kensington adapter combo 'bricked' it. I have a few other SDHC cards but... not sure how many I want to experiment with. Also on this thread I don't know if I've seen anybody explicity saying they were able to format the card in an EX1 and Kensington adapter. Also the Kensington adapter with SDHC card doesn't allow for the EX1 SxS door to close, another inconvenience. So, my questions are: Any got this combo to format even (let alone record)? Any other Adapter and Card that works that also would allow me to close the SxS door? Are there diminishing returns with this endeavor?

September 17th, 2008, 07:28 AM	#127
Paul Newman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Agua Blanca Ibiza Posts: 305	Has anyone tested this: SANDISK EXTREME IV CF 8GB or 16GB cards? SanDisk Extreme IV CompactFlash card is now available at a new level of performance at 45MB/s read/write speed. SanDisk Extreme® IV CompactFlash memory cards are the new, industry leading choice for professional photographers who demand one of the fastest, most rugged, most reliable cards on the market. They feature the tested durability and professional-level services that have become synonymous with the SanDisk Extreme product family. Paul __________________ Another Sunny Day in Ibiza

September 17th, 2008, 09:42 PM	#134
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Latest Update for EX1 only (No EX3 to try): GOOD NEWS SO FAR! First of all: It's important to understand that I've only done one 3HR session of testing. Please do not run out and buy this combo until I've had time to run it through longer testing. Read on... The only bad news is I could not get the AFT PROExpress-7 expresscard to work with the new Extreme III 30MB/s. It had a media error. Oddly, the very first time I tried the combo, it asked to be formatted, then failed with the media error. After that, It never gave the format option again, even after formatting the card on the PC and trying again. Here's my CrystalDiskMark data rates for the NEW Extreme: SanDisk SDHC 16GB Extreme III 30MB/s Sustained data rate: Read: 19.06MB/s Write: 15.81MB/s Random 512K file: Read: 18.76MB/s Write: 3.703MB/s Random 4K file: Read: 3.581MB/s to 6.46MB/s Write: 0.036MB/s Since all the values were very close to each other, I did not write down a min max range. My understanding is in order to actually get the new SanDisk Extreme III manufacture data rate claim (30MB/s), special device firmware must be programmed. The new Nikon D90 has just that. In fact, SanDisk designed the new Extreme III (30MB/s) for the D90. Having said that, I did notice that the cards data rates are very repeatable. Also, the 512K random data rate at 3.7MB/s is the highest I've measure and seen for SDHC cards. I'm not sure how high the Sony EX1 data rate may momentarily burst when using HQ mode, but based on the sustained 15.81 MB writes and 3.7MB/s 512K file random writes it appears it may be fast enough for all HQ modes. The sustained data writes were very repeatable. This along with a bit quicker random writes, may of been the ticket. It is not fast enough to run S&Q modes, but Sony's new SxS video capture hard drive is neither. Here's the ONLY problem, it works with the Kensington Expresscard which with the SDHC card inserted will not allow the EX1 memory door to close. It only misses it by a mm or so... bummer. Having said that, for 16GB: 1, Kensington 7-in-1 Media Reader $ 36 (USD) 1, SanDisk Extreme III 16GB 30MB/s version $129 (USD) ______________________________________________ Total USD: $165.00 (USD) !!! Not bad for being able to record EX1 HQ modes. Again, I'd wait until you hear more from me. I want to test it everyday for a week or so. So far, I've been trying different record modes. I had one run recording over 40 minutes no issues.. Also, I've been starting and stopping recording after only a second or two. This has made my previous memory cards/AFT reader fail. Also, for some reason 1080i would fail easier. Right now, after three hours of testing, I have not had one error (knock on wood..LOL). It's looking good... Now, only if the damn memory door would close! Look for further updates. Last edited by Steven Thomas; September 18th, 2008 at 08:15 PM.

September 16th, 2008, 04:02 PM	#121
John Hedgecoe Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 146	Although not SDHC, I thought some might find this interesting. Today I received a Transcend 16GB 300x UDMA CompactFlash card. I have the Delkin ExpressCard34 UDMA CompactFlash adapter, so I gave them the Disk read/write test. Here are my results... Sustained data rate: Read: 44.54 to 44.61 MB/s Write: 33.39 to 34.92 MB/s 512K Read: 24.84 to 25.81 MB/s Write: 22.60 to 23.08 MB/s 4K Read: 0.484 to 0.529 MB/s Write: 1.093 to 1.114 MB/s Have to say I was surprised by the low values on the 4K read/write. But then, how many 4K files do we write with this camera, so probably not an issue. The key here is that the Delkin adapter uses the PCIe bus, not USB and the CF card is UDMA. I don't think there is an equivalent to UDMA in SDHC. Oh, in case anyone is interested, I performed the test using the HP 2133 mini-note PC (1.2GHz), Windows XP Pro SP3.

September 16th, 2008, 05:09 PM	#122
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Thanks John. The 4K random read looks a little bit odd, but (based on THIS same test) all the write values are faster than the Sony SxS cards. I believe I tried the Delkin expresscard to CF adaptor and it fails with a media incompataibility type error in the EX1. I was using different compact flash memory. Did you try yours in the EX1? Based on your numbers, it sure looks like it would work with the EX1. Well, assuming you can get it to work with the EX1 and also work at those data rates.

September 16th, 2008, 07:33 PM	#124
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Keith, I ve been there... exact same error testing different memory. There's nothing wrong with your memory short of it's to slow for the EX1. I've had some memory almost work fine and enable me to record 20 minutes of 1080P without an error. I have the NEW SanDisk Extreme III 16GB 30MB/s coming in maybe by thursday. I'll report back.

September 16th, 2008, 11:35 PM	#125
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	Steven, Thanks for the reply... However, actually there is something wrong with at least the Transcend 8GB card I tried to format in the EX1, as it stopped at 79% and wouldn't go further and hung my EX1 so I couldn't even power it off. When I removed the battery to get the EX1 out of that state the Transcend card was hosed. I mean it would not function in any device I tried. Either nothing recognized it or wouldn't format it. Do you have a EX1 and the Kensington Expresscard adapter and have you successfully formatted a SDHC card with it? If so then I will try again with another card. I'm also going to be getting the Sandisk Extreme 16GB 30MB/S card soon. You first!

September 17th, 2008, 06:04 AM	#126
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	No I have an AFT 7-in-one adapter and I've seen it stop at exactly 79% on a different SDHC card. I do not have a transcend to try. Like yours, it would not power off. I ended up pulling out the adapter which freed up the camera. IMO, it's not your card or adapter. The speed of the Transcend SDHC card is to slow.

September 17th, 2008, 07:42 AM	#128
John Hedgecoe Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 146	No, I have not had a chance to try it on the EX1 yet. My EX1 is in Bangkok, while I am currently in Florida. My firmware is 1.02, so I need to have the firmware upgrade before I can try. I'll have to see if I can find someone in Bangkok to do it, and I need the battery drain issue fixed too. I head back Oct 1, so I'll head off to a store in Fortune Mall that sells the EX1 and see if they can point me to a Sony repair facility that can handle the upgrade. Delkin makes (made?) two expresscard34 to Cf adapters. They can be told apart by the color of the CF end. One is white plastic and that one uses the USB bus, while the other adapter is black plastic and it uses the PCIe bus. Mine is the black one. While I am curious to see if it works, it is not something I would actually want to use. It is just too vulnerable.

September 17th, 2008, 08:52 AM	#129
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	The one I tried had the black end and was the PCIe based one. Again, it may of been the memory card I tried. I posted the details of the CF card in one of these threads.

September 17th, 2008, 08:58 AM	#130
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	We need to find an expresscard adaptor to CF that works on the EX1 first.

September 17th, 2008, 02:09 PM	#132
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Thanks Keith. When the 79% happened with my AFT expresscard and SDHC, I was able to reformat the card with my PC. I tried it again... and same 79% lockup. I reformatted the card and returned it. If you want to wait for me to try BOTH the AFT and Kensington with my extreme, I will be trying this tonight. It's up to you.

September 18th, 2008, 03:01 AM	#135
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	Hi Steven OK, I waited for you to test my combo, EX1+Kensington Adapter+Extreme III 30MB edition, so I went ahead and tried it. Put card into EX1 "B" slot, EX1 asked to format, formatted in an instant. Switched to card B for some 1080 30P format shooting, Worked flawlessly as far as I could tell. For a lark I tried using Slow Motion, 720 24P cranked down to 60FPS. "Media Error" on the LCD. Couldn't use the card, so switched to card A where I still had the SxS 8GB, pulled out the Kensington+Extreme, turned of slo motion, and it went back to working flawlessly. Shot about 5 minutes or so without a glitch, didn't seem like the EX1 knew it wasn't a SxS card. So, while the door doesn't close, if it's in slot B, it's not the end of the world. I can see Is there another Expresscard/SDHC adapter that might allow the slot to close and also works? I can see this working for gigs where you can do the slomo shots if you need them on Card A, and use card B for the normal motion shots (hell you get 1 hour out of a 16GB card). A hell of a lot easier than swapping cards into your laptop in the middle of a shoot, and of course about 1/10 the price of SxS. Only drawback is the door and the fact that the SDHC cards are kind of tiny and easy to lose (I have before... bummer). Thanks for the testing Steven, let me know how it goes and if you can find out how to turn the card into turbo mode with the EX1!