SDHC substitute for SxS cards

Erik Phairas · October 10th, 2008, 07:26 PM

whoa that was scary.. couldn't get the ultra II to work, it wouldn't even format.. ran a test on the computer, all the read write speeds are way high... very good. over 17mbs on the first series of tests. Numbers were stable during the test.

Tried to format several times, powered down, switched slots... nothing.

Then I tried my 2nd kensington reader... worked first time. Tried record in HQ and SP both worked.

Guess I got a bum 7 in 1 reader. :(

Alex Raskin · October 10th, 2008, 09:38 PM

Erik - did you try IOC-9750? I posted a link (prob prev page now) for $8 cost + free shipping on it.

Paul Newman · October 11th, 2008, 02:08 AM

Just to add that Transcend and Lexar SSD 8GB cards tested here, only suitable for SP recording, and sometimes not even that. Tread carefully with these, they may let you down when you least expect it. These two were tested with my EX1.

I've also finished testing Patriot 16Gb SDHC class 6 card - this is too slow and throws errors, even with HQ - avoid. Tested with Kensington adapter in my EX1

Paul

Erik Phairas · October 11th, 2008, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Raskin

Erik - did you try IOC-9750? I posted a link (prob prev page now) for $8 cost + free shipping on it.

Yea I guess I need too. I am going to see if I can return the bad kensington first.

Craig Seeman · October 11th, 2008, 02:47 AM

I have no backup HD camera although the place I bought the camera from might give me a loaner. I'm planing on driving to Teaneck but 3 weeks is ABSURD! BTW I'm not speaking from "the abstract." I'm a former Video Engineer at a big facility and used to deal with Teaneck regularly. They never took anything close to that long on anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lou Kulynych

Yes Three Weeks!!! A boy did it stink! I had a very busy September and ended up using and abusing my Canon XH-A1. If you have a backup camera to use then I suggest you drive you EX1 into Teaneck (that's if you're in Brooklyn) and be ready for a three week wait.

John Peterson · October 11th, 2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I have no backup HD camera although the place I bought the camera from might give me a loaner. I'm planing on driving to Teaneck but 3 weeks is ABSURD! BTW I'm not speaking from "the abstract." I'm a former Video Engineer at a big facility and used to deal with Teaneck regularly. They never took anything close to that long on anything.

I kind of resent having to pay $100 for a firmware upgrade. Do you recommend against a DIY approach if one can get the leaked firmware from some anonymous place? And I don't mean from an "ethical" standpoint. I mean from a "practical" standpoint. I have never in my life heard of paying for firmware upgrades for anything. What if there are several more firmware upgrades? Does that mean we have to pay $100 each time they update the firmware? It's gouging. I feel like someone who has had an SxS card shoved up their .........and can't get it out.

John

Steven Thomas · October 11th, 2008, 10:26 AM

Right now, the Kensington adapter is the best working solution for using SDHC cards in the EX1 and EX3.
At least until we find a working solution equal or better than the SDHC that allows the EX1 door to close.

The Kensignton with SDHC is capable of overcranking 40FPS at 24P without an error in the EX.
This overcrank is an equivalent of approx 8.3MB/s.

We know the Kensington specs should offer the full SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s data rate, but for "some reason", we are limited to 8.3MB/s.

It would be nice to know if this bottleneck is the way Sony is using the USB Protocol (or they possibly intentionally crippled the USB datarate).? Or, is it a problem with the Kensington 7-in-1 expresscard adaptor?

We can learn the answer to these questions with a USB 2.0 to USB Mode ExpressCard reader.
The Sony expresscard reader is PCIe based and will not work with our USB based adaptor.

Here's one USB 2.0 to USB Mode ExpressCard that would be nice to try:
MicroU2E-MV USB 2.0 to USB Mode ExpressCard 34|54 Multi-Voltage Host Adapter, Synchrotech

We could run the Crystal Disk Mark PC utility datarate memory tester on our SDHC.
If we are able to get the 15MB/s sustained R/W datarates, we will know that the problem is with the way Sony is using the USB, or they intentionally crippled the USB datarate.

This certainly will explain why their own USB PHU-60K drive barely works in HQ mode. It has lots of "restore media" errors and also explains why it's not fast enough to run S&Q modes.

Ted OMalley · October 11th, 2008, 10:55 AM

Let's chip in and send it to Steven for testing. $60 should cover the part plus shipping. I'll commit to $10 - anyone else?

Once we get the money committed, we can PayPal Steven and he can order it and the research can continue.

Steven Thomas · October 11th, 2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted OMalley

Let's chip in and send it to Steven for testing. $60 should cover the part plus shipping. I'll commit to $10 - anyone else?

Thank Ted, but I think you just closed down the thread. LOL ;)

I appreciate, but no need. I'm just wondering if someone might have a USB based expresscard reader in their laptop or PC that might want to run the Crystal Disk Mark datarate tests on the Kensington plus SDHC combo.

Alister Chapman · October 11th, 2008, 11:13 AM

Give me 30 mins. I have a laptop with both Express card slot and SD card slot. I'll do some tests.

Steven Thomas · October 11th, 2008, 11:39 AM

Thanks Alister!
Here's a link to the free datarate tester:

http://crystalmark.info/software/Cry...k/index-e.html

David Heath · October 11th, 2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

The Kensington + SDHC is capable of overcranking 40FPS at 24P without an error in the EX.
This overcrank is an equivalent of approx 8.3MB/s.

That equates to a data rate of just over 65Mbs, which raises an interesting question. There's due to be an SxS adaptor for the PDW700, when the normal data rate is 50Mbs. Will SDHC reliably record at this rate?

Since the 65Mbs is an actual working speed, not a nominal manufacturers spec, I think there's grounds for optimism, but it should be an interesting test.

Alister Chapman · October 11th, 2008, 12:29 PM

OK ran some tests, pretty inconclusive, but here are my results, the last one is interesting:

Transcend 16Gb Class 6 card (also ran the tests with a 8Gb Extreme III, almost exactly the same results). 500Mb sequential file.

In Kensington adapter via express card slot.

Seq R19.37/W14.37
512k 19.22/2.54
4k 4.68/0.021

Via Sandisk USB adapter

Seq 19.38/14.53
512k 19.22/1.92
4k 4.677/0.018

Via built-in SD card slot... This is the interesting one..

Seq 7.76/6.80
512k 7.65/1.69
4k 4.32/0.018

This was with a Sony NV11M laptop.

Maybe they are using the same controller in the laptop as in the as the EX! From this test I would suggest that the Kensington card is not the bottleneck.

By the way PHU-60 users have found that with a USB sex changer (sony use an odd USB connector on the express card adapter) they have been able to use generic USB hard drives. No matter how big the drive no one can get them to format above 80Gb. But still opens up the possibility of recording to cheap USB drives.

Steven Thomas · October 11th, 2008, 12:45 PM

Thank you Alister!

This is good and bad news!

This now concludes that the issue is with Sony's EX camera implementation of USB data control.
OR, worst yet, they intentionally crippled the USB data rate!

Sony, PLEASE fix the USB datarate problem.

This may allow your own PHU-60K to not have "restore media" errors.
Which we know are directly tied to datarate. We determined this by using slow SDHC cards in the Kensington reader. They also were infected with "restore media" errors.

IMO, and many will agree, the ability to use SDHC cards is a breakthrough for Sony.
This itself, will increase camera sales. Also, it will allow you to manufacture a better working
SDHC card reader that will allow the EX1 memory door to close with the SDHC card inserted.

Alister Chapman · October 11th, 2008, 01:16 PM

I also agree that Sony should support SD cards, they have everything to gain, after all, they will sell lots more EX's

October 11th, 2008, 02:08 AM	#543
Paul Newman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Agua Blanca Ibiza Posts: 305	Just to add that Transcend and Lexar SSD 8GB cards tested here, only suitable for SP recording, and sometimes not even that. Tread carefully with these, they may let you down when you least expect it. These two were tested with my EX1. I've also finished testing Patriot 16Gb SDHC class 6 card - this is too slow and throws errors, even with HQ - avoid. Tested with Kensington adapter in my EX1 Paul __________________ Another Sunny Day in Ibiza

October 11th, 2008, 10:55 AM	#548
Ted OMalley Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 596	Let's chip in and send it to Steven for testing. $60 should cover the part plus shipping. I'll commit to $10 - anyone else? Once we get the money committed, we can PayPal Steven and he can order it and the research can continue. __________________ Sony EX3, Vegas 9.0 64bit, Windows 7(64), Core i7, 12GB, RAID1 & 0, HotSwap SATA, 30" LCD(2560x1600)-GTX285 & 24" LCD(1360x768)-7800GT

October 11th, 2008, 11:13 AM	#550
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Give me 30 mins. I have a laptop with both Express card slot and SD card slot. I'll do some tests. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

October 11th, 2008, 12:29 PM	#553
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	OK ran some tests, pretty inconclusive, but here are my results, the last one is interesting: Transcend 16Gb Class 6 card (also ran the tests with a 8Gb Extreme III, almost exactly the same results). 500Mb sequential file. In Kensington adapter via express card slot. Seq R19.37/W14.37 512k 19.22/2.54 4k 4.68/0.021 Via Sandisk USB adapter Seq 19.38/14.53 512k 19.22/1.92 4k 4.677/0.018 Via built-in SD card slot... This is the interesting one.. Seq 7.76/6.80 512k 7.65/1.69 4k 4.32/0.018 This was with a Sony NV11M laptop. Maybe they are using the same controller in the laptop as in the as the EX! From this test I would suggest that the Kensington card is not the bottleneck. By the way PHU-60 users have found that with a USB sex changer (sony use an odd USB connector on the express card adapter) they have been able to use generic USB hard drives. No matter how big the drive no one can get them to format above 80Gb. But still opens up the possibility of recording to cheap USB drives. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

October 11th, 2008, 01:16 PM	#555
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	I also agree that Sony should support SD cards, they have everything to gain, after all, they will sell lots more EX's __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

October 10th, 2008, 07:26 PM	#541
Erik Phairas Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 628	whoa that was scary.. couldn't get the ultra II to work, it wouldn't even format.. ran a test on the computer, all the read write speeds are way high... very good. over 17mbs on the first series of tests. Numbers were stable during the test. Tried to format several times, powered down, switched slots... nothing. Then I tried my 2nd kensington reader... worked first time. Tried record in HQ and SP both worked. Guess I got a bum 7 in 1 reader. :(

October 10th, 2008, 09:38 PM	#542
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Erik - did you try IOC-9750? I posted a link (prob prev page now) for $8 cost + free shipping on it.

October 11th, 2008, 10:26 AM	#547
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Right now, the Kensington adapter is the best working solution for using SDHC cards in the EX1 and EX3. At least until we find a working solution equal or better than the SDHC that allows the EX1 door to close. The Kensignton with SDHC is capable of overcranking 40FPS at 24P without an error in the EX. This overcrank is an equivalent of approx 8.3MB/s. We know the Kensington specs should offer the full SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s data rate, but for "some reason", we are limited to 8.3MB/s. It would be nice to know if this bottleneck is the way Sony is using the USB Protocol (or they possibly intentionally crippled the USB datarate).? Or, is it a problem with the Kensington 7-in-1 expresscard adaptor? We can learn the answer to these questions with a USB 2.0 to USB Mode ExpressCard reader. The Sony expresscard reader is PCIe based and will not work with our USB based adaptor. Here's one USB 2.0 to USB Mode ExpressCard that would be nice to try: MicroU2E-MV USB 2.0 to USB Mode ExpressCard 34\|54 Multi-Voltage Host Adapter, Synchrotech We could run the Crystal Disk Mark PC utility datarate memory tester on our SDHC. If we are able to get the 15MB/s sustained R/W datarates, we will know that the problem is with the way Sony is using the USB, or they intentionally crippled the USB datarate. This certainly will explain why their own USB PHU-60K drive barely works in HQ mode. It has lots of "restore media" errors and also explains why it's not fast enough to run S&Q modes.

October 11th, 2008, 11:39 AM	#551
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Thanks Alister! Here's a link to the free datarate tester: http://crystalmark.info/software/Cry...k/index-e.html

October 11th, 2008, 12:45 PM	#554
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Thank you Alister! This is good and bad news! This now concludes that the issue is with Sony's EX camera implementation of USB data control. OR, worst yet, they intentionally crippled the USB data rate! Sony, PLEASE fix the USB datarate problem. This may allow your own PHU-60K to not have "restore media" errors. Which we know are directly tied to datarate. We determined this by using slow SDHC cards in the Kensington reader. They also were infected with "restore media" errors. IMO, and many will agree, the ability to use SDHC cards is a breakthrough for Sony. This itself, will increase camera sales. Also, it will allow you to manufacture a better working SDHC card reader that will allow the EX1 memory door to close with the SDHC card inserted.