Best 4:2:2 colorspace/workflow for EX1

[Abdulla Nadym]

Hi

i guess we all know how to get the footage out of the camera as an MP4 file & then to mxf files.

Currently im using Vegas pro8 to edit the mxf files. What would be the best 10bit YUV 422 codec for the mxf for future CC & effects.

If one was to use a codec like CineForm NEO hd to convert the mxf files to 10bit YUV 422 mov's will Vegas support them without truncating it to an 8bit video?

Whats the max YUV or RGB color space supported by Vegas8? How would one compare Vegas8, CS3 & FCP interm of this 10bit 422 YUV video support?

Thanks in advance

[Chris Medico]

You aren't gaining anything by doing that. The video downloaded from the cards is 4:2:0 already. If you want 4:2:2 from the EX1 you have to capture it live from the SDI port.

[Perrone Ford]

Vegas is using 4:4:4 on it's timeline. Set your project to 32 bit floating, and have at it. Saving as 10-bit YUV should preserve everything you're doing.

I saved my files as Sony 10bit I believe when I was doing a lot of CC and other work.

-P

Originally Posted by Abdulla Nadym

Hi

i guess we all know how to get the footage out of the camera as an MP4 file & then to mxf files.

Currently im using Vegas pro8 to edit the mxf files. What would be the best 10bit YUV 422 codec for the mxf for future CC & effects.

If one was to use a codec like CineForm NEO hd to convert the mxf files to 10bit YUV 422 mov's will Vegas support them without truncating it to an 8bit video?

Whats the max YUV or RGB color space supported by Vegas8? How would one compare Vegas8, CS3 & FCP interm of this 10bit 422 YUV video support?

Thanks in advance

[Bill Ravens]

Believe me, 32-bit float in Vegas 8b is a REAL can of worms. Your render times go thru the roof and there's NO GUARANTEE what you get back, colorwise.

Once you've recorded to SxS or captured thru the EX1's firewire port, you're in 4:2:0 8-bit color land. This is fine for Vegas, because Vegas' I/O is only 8-bit anyway. Trying to import 10 bit into vegas is an exercise in futility. Once in vegas, however, it's true that the rendering engine is 10-bit. This won't make more out of something you already have(i.e. 8 bit) until you start color timing and using FX. CCing in 10-bit will help image quality. When you export back out of Vegas, using a 10-bit codec, like the SONY YUV codec, is rather useless unless you're going to another format and this is a decent intermediate. Personally, Cineform is a much nicer, friendlier intermediate codec than Sony YUV. Just remember, importing 10-bit into vegas will become 8-bit. Vegas no lo comprende 10 bit input!!

But, for the majority of distribution workflows, exporting to an 8-bit codec is the best way to go. You gained in the only place that matters...that's using a 10-bit codec to color time.

Color timing is a rather silly exercise if your ultimate goal is to get back to film...as in real celluloid. The conversion from DI to film will, of necessity, require a professional CC guy at the tape house who knows how to go from DI back to celluloid.

There's a misconception that vegas' 32-bit float is like 10-bit data. It is NOT NOT NOT.32-bit float is/was a marketting ploy from Sony to take advantage of decimal point round off error with 8-bit...which is a very very small correction for color banding....even if it worked.

Hope this helps out and isn't too confusing. Not trying to start a verbal war, just wanting the technology to be clear to anyone unfamiliar with the jargon.

[Abdulla Nadym]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Vegas is using 4:4:4 on it's timeline. Set your project to 32 bit floating, and have at it. Saving as 10-bit YUV should preserve everything you're doing.

I saved my files as Sony 10bit I believe when I was doing a lot of CC and other work.

I remeber experts posting on some other threads mentioned that Vegas8 is an 8bit software and thus cannot understand 10bit YUV 422 video, opposed to Premier CS3 which can support 10bit YUV internally so that one can do CC & Effects at 10bit levels-end

so i make a master at 10bit YUV PRIOR to or AFTER CC & effects to get the best results on dvd?

which workflow suits best?
EX1 > mxf > effects & CC > 10bit YUV output from Vegas8 > DVD
EX1 > mxf > 10bit YUV cineform with HD link > PP CS3 > effects n cc > 10bit YUV> DVD
EX1 > mxf > Vegas8 timeline > CC & effects > DVD

Thanks everyone

[Abdulla Nadym]

Thanks Bill, lot of help there

excuse me for the tangled up post! actually here we dont print back to film, we just capture, edit, CC, & render to an uncompressed mov file n off it becomes a dvd.

The workflow which im trying to focus here is the all digital tapeless workflow. I wanted to know if converting the mxf files to a 10bit YUV file prior to editing or cc would help retain the gradients etc when we need to do extensive CC & effects on it. Im just scared that the 420 ex1 files might "dissolve" with the hard cc etc through vegas. The current mxf files edited, primary cc, secondary cc, effects & output to dvd looks decent, but not as good as i want.

so ur suggesting PP CS3 is better for future proof 444 or 422 yuv/RGB video etc?

[Bill Ravens]

I have no experience with PPCS3.
What I can say, however, is that if you start with 4:2:0, you can NEVER make it better than that. In other words, color corrections must be done VERY carefully and with finesse.Long form GOP is very sensitive to cc. Any attempt to correct exposure, for example, will result in increasing noise and grain. You can't create something when nothing's there to start with. Doesn't matter what NLE you try to do it with.

If you're set on maximizing quality from your EX1, your only real option is to record directly from the HD-SDI port at 4:2:2 10-bit. Then import into a 10-bit capable NLE(which is not Vegas). The two options I'm aware of to do this are:
1-Blackmagic Design I/O cards or AJA I/O cards, directly into your computer
2-Convergent design's Flash or nano XDR tapeless recorder.

If you insist on processing 8-bit data as 10-bit, here's the workflow:
EX1 4:2:0(8-bit)->Vegas8->CC->export to 4:2:2(10-bit) codec->distribution method?????

[Abdulla Nadym]

Thanks heaps Bill, a real life saver,

So oneday when i can afford an SDI field recorder with the EX1 which will yeild a mountain of 422 data, i would need CineForm to make a 10bit YUV managble intermediate for edit using an NLE that supports 10bit? i suppose FCP, PP CS3, Avid MC would.

So for now the best option would be to edit, cc, effects on the mxf file using Vegas8 and output to DVD right?

big thanks Bill, btw ur profiles rock with the EX1

[Bill Ravens]

Originally Posted by Abdulla Nadym

Thanks heaps Bill, a real life saver,



So for now the best option would be to edit, cc, effects on the mxf file using Vegas8 and output to DVD right?

thanx...
This workflow will work OK. I'm much happier using Cineform's Neo HD to transcode the .mxf files into CFHD( an .avi wrapped INTRAframe codec). Editting interframe compression like mxf is stressful on your computer. Intraframe compression, like cineform CFHD, cuts better, edits easier, and is less stressful on your processor resources.

[Steven Thomas]

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Believe me, 32-bit float in Vegas 8b is a REAL can of worms. Your render times go thru the roof and there's NO GUARANTEE what you get back, colorwise.

Spoken like a wise man.
Sony really needs to FIX Vegas.

Bill is right, 32 bit mode is not worth the render time, not to mention the color space games.

I've been using Sony Vegas for years and it's been a constant game on getting the colors and levels correct in the end.

Bill has Edius offered 1920x1080P for the EX1 yet? Last time I spoke to you it was was only 1440x1080. I guess I could get off my lazy azz and look myself! LOL

[Bill Ravens]

Hi steve...

nope. Edius will drag and drop EX1 files straight from the BPAV folder, but still doesn't have the HD format(1920x1080)

However, you can import and work with 1440x1080, then export with PROCODER3.05 to 1920x1080. I don't think you lose anything by this workflow.

[Abdulla Nadym]

hows the color precision of the Edius compared to Vegas, CC effects etc for editing with EX1 footage?

[Steven Thomas]

Thanks for the info Bill.

[Bill Ravens]

My personal opinion, Edius is a very straightforward program. What you see is what you get. It doesn't have the compositing capability vegas has, but, it is reliable. Toss the dice and choose your poison....;o) , I better ask the right questions.
I like edius, but, I like avid, too. Avid will give me everything I ask of it, but, I better ask the right questions. In an emergency, I would pick edius for a reliable cut and edit NLE. If I wanted to get fancy, I'd go for Avid. If I was wanting a quick and dirty, Vegas.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

nope. Edius will drag and drop EX1 files straight from the BPAV folder, but still doesn't have the HD format(1920x1080)

How do you mean, Bill - I've been using Edius 1920x1080/50i projects with HQ mxf 25p files with no problems.

Edius Broadcast 4.61 certainly DOES offer full HD (in addition to HDV) format; true there is no 1920x1080/25p preset, but using 50i works just fine also with the EX1's 25p.