Baby version of EX1 planned?

[Dom Stevenson]

Are there any plans for a Baby version of the EX1?

I used to have the pd150 sibling the PDX10 but traded it in for the Canon A1. Now I could do with another small camera but am not sure about the Z1's little brother the A1, because i feel it's going to be superseded pretty soon.

Any thoughts?

[Sean Seah]

I'm not sure if they can make a full HD cam with 1x 1/2" EXMOR chip. That would be a nice partner to the EX1. It looks like the EX1 is the EX3 buddy at the moment!

[Seun Osewa]

Isnt the A1U sort of the baby version of the EX1?

[Matt Davis]

Originally Posted by Dom Stevenson

the pd150 sibling the PDX10

In my experience, the two were pretty different:

PD150 = Good in low light, poor in 16:9, bugs in audio

PDX10 = Poor in low light, good in 16:9, clean audio

The EX1's outstanding features are its 1/2" chips and SxS workflow - both of which require quite a bit of power - not good for a small camera.

An A1 that records to CF or whatever may be interesting, but using 1/3" or more likely 1/4" won't help sensitivity or DoF, and those are the top two EX1 features.

IMHO Scarlet is the closest thing to a pocket EX1 for now. But I could be (and quite frequently am) wrong.

[Robert Young]

I've used the A1 for numerous small cam projects since it first came out. It's main drawback is poor low light performance with a lot of noise to boot. It looks like maybe the "new A1" is the Sony SR12 AVCHD, HDD/Memory Stick 1/3" CMOS 1920x1080 cam. The AVCHD codec seems solid and easily editable with DI (Cineform Prospect HD for me). Final edit travels well to DVD, Blu Ray, Flash, iTunes, etc. It has a 3.2" 1 meg. pixel LCD similar to the EX, as good re manual control as the A1, significantly smaller size, good low light performance, and amazing lack of noise. In a way, it is a baby EX.
The cool move for Sony would be to replace the A1 with a 1/2" CMOS, 1920x1080 AVCHD @ 25 mbs instead of 17 mbs, or maybe even EX format codec @ 25 mbs, recorded to CF/Memory Stick, in the same size cam as the A1.
The A1 was a very successful cam that is now showing its age. I can't help but think Sony is working on something brilliant to replace it with soon.
For anyone interested in seeing edited SR12 footage, a 5 min Flash version shot last weekend is here:http://www.irondocvideo.com/Refuge%2...0Frameset.html
It's the top video on the page- City of Refuge II
Flash on the web is hardly critical viewing, but the Blu Ray version looks like it compares very well against HDV from my Sony V1. Of course the EX (City of Refuge I) trumps them all- no surprise there.

[Dom Stevenson]

some interesting replies. Thanks.

So how does the Sony SR12 compare to the Canon HV20 bearing in mind i can live with tape for a while longer?

The Canon still looks like a bargain, especially since i own the XHA1 and could do with a second camera, but i'm open to conversion if something better is out there.

Slightly OT, i haven't seen any reason to shoot any of these cameras in the progressive mode, and on the occasions i've experimented, have not noticed any discernible differences apart from lousy pan judders on my XHA1 in the f mode.

Cheers

Dom

[Matt Davis]

Originally Posted by Dom Stevenson

Slightly OT, i haven't seen any reason to shoot any of these cameras in the progressive mode, and on the occasions i've experimented, have not noticed any discernible differences apart from lousy pan judders on my XHA1 in the f mode.

Okay, so what display device do you have that is natively interlaced?

[irony: ON]

Do you have one of those clunky old CRT things? Big heavy old monitor with tired phosphors and screaming HT circuits? Not the computer ones, the cheap and nasty things that go phut after a few years, or don't - much to our collective chagrin.

Interlacing is a horrible artifact of the old analogue days. A cheat that is well past its sell by date.

[irony: OFF]

When you shoot interlaced and display on LCD, plasma or projector, one of two bad things happen: if you're lucky, your resolution is cut by 25%, so 1080i ends up as a so-so 720 image. If you're unlucky, your resolution is cut in half as the display device throws out every other field. 1080i becomes 540p, and that's less than SD PAL.

You get Faux 50p out of the motion, but the resolution has been minced, spliced and diced.

I get better images from 720p50 than I do 1080i. Don't take my word for it - I'm agreeing with the findings of the BBC and the European Broadcasting Union.

Progressive = sharper images. Want less judder? shoot at 50p.

I have absolutely HAD IT with interlaced video.

But the nurse says I must rest now.

[Robert Young]

I don't have any experience with the Canon HV20, but if the SR12 is comparing well with bigger 3 chip HDV cams, I would certainly expect it to look at least as good as the Canon.
The SR12 only shoots 60i. People who want 30p, 24p will have to look elsewhere.
For myself, I like the way 60i renders motion for the type of stuff I shoot. The workflow that has been most effective for me- to get the motion capture of 60i, and also to avoid downstream interlace issues is:
1) Shoot EX 60i HQ
2) Import and edit as Cineform Prospect HD 1920x1080, 30p, 10 bit, 4:2:2 .avi
This seems to convert potential interlace issues into acceptable motion blur and looks great on any 30p output- from web to Blu Ray (Blu Ray, at 1080 transcode, will "reinterlace" the single 30p images, but it doesn't seem to look any different from the original 30p edit)

[Robert Young]

Also, I might add- to keep some perspective - I was looking for a small cam for situations where a bigger camera is not practical. My threshold is only that it looks "good enough".
The idea that any teeny consumer cam can really replace a V1/Z1, or even come within spitting distance of a big gun like the EX is unrealistic. The A1 has done a fair job of what I needed, and now the SR12 has quite surprised me with it's image quality, flexability, and low noise. It's definitely a step up, but it wouldn't surprise me to see an "A2" sometime soon that's even better.

[Dom Stevenson]

So you won't agree with this article Matt?

http://www.dv.com/columns/columns_it...leId=196603851

[Matt Davis]

Originally Posted by Dom Stevenson

So you won't agree with this article Matt?]

I can empathise, but I can't quite agree:

http://www.macvideo.tv/blogs/index.c...entryId=102197

Interlace is still an absolute anathema. What good does interlace do on a progressive display device? Oh, so our cameras can't quite do what we want them to do unless they cheat with Interlace? I rest my point.

The Canon HV20 is a lovely little thing that I love to bits. When filming stuff under that great big nuclear day-ball, it's amazing. Struggles a bit under lesser lamps.

But let's get this straight: 24/25 fps isn't quite perfect. You have to do things to make it work. Disney had to film real people to make Snow White 'not judder', motion has its limitations with 24/25p, and anyone who says 50/60i rocks is quite correct in that motion looks smooth and video-like, but de-interlacing introduces a filmic blurriness to bring it down to 25p which is upscaled to 50p (Americans - do your own math).

I want sharpness. I want clarity. Heck, as an ex-Z1 shooter, I really want a picture without artificial sharpening.

No, I don't agree, and sorry about writing this in crayon. The nurse is very strict about taht.

[Malcolm Hamilton]

I'm following this thread because I've been wanting to get a small second camera to accompany my EX1.
I edit on a Mac (using Avid Media Composer), so I've been put off by AVCHD, which most consumer cameras use, and which (from what I understand), is a pain to get into most editing apps.

This new Samsung (around $800, I think) records MPEG-4, at 1080/30p.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/17...corder-review/

What do you think?
Malcolm

[Dom Stevenson]

I read your article Matt. Can't say i'm any the wiser.

When i got my XHA1 i shot in the f mode. Then i changed to Interlaced. I'm not one of those guys who puts every frame under a microscope but i can't honestly say i can tell the difference, except that pans are smoother in i mode.

Getting bqck to my reason for being here. I'm off to the middle East in September and need to look like a tourist as i've decided not to go through the expense and palava of getting a press visa. I'd like to take my A1 but am leaning towards buying an HV20 and finding an alternative way of capturing quality audio when necessary.

What benefits would shooting in the 25f mode bring me on a camera at this level?

[Matt Davis]

Originally Posted by Dom Stevenson

Can't say i'm any the wiser.

Oh dear. Sorry.

I'd shoot 1080p in 25p Cine mode in your Canon HV20 if - IF - the electricity is European 50 Hz mode. If not, try 24p and 60i if you wish.

Progressive mode is not juddery if you follow your subject and keep it in the same part of the frame. Don't bother with whip pans and keeping the shutter on.

There's a number of mics for the Canon HV20-30. Well worth getting the audio right. It's 60% of the picture quality. No kidding. I use Sennheiser G2 packs to get radio mics on presenters into HV20 when I have to.

The HV20 is a real handful when it comes to actually filming stuff. It's so auto it can make big bad mistakes. But if you stick to progressive, the pictures look good, and the audio will make it look better.

[Dom Stevenson]

"It's (audio) 60% of the picture quality"

Indeed. I always tell people about the Blair Witch Project.

A 20'000 dollar DV movie with a Million dollar soundmix.

Few people would have paid to sit in a cinema to watch it without the expensive audio.


Ok. If i get this camera i shall do some side by side tests with the 25 p mode. I already have the sennheisser pack but am looking into other options. I'm told the onboard mic is not too bad on the HV20 so it might pick up respectable ambient stuff which is generally usable. I'm thinking of doing a fair bit of post sound to iron out the edges and bring a different feel to it, but interviews need to be crisp.
The Edirol, sony and Zoom4 options look interesting.