Sony PMW-EX1 + Photographer's Flash = Disaster?? at DVinfo.net

Desmond Sukotjo · July 2nd, 2008, 05:17 AM

Greeting.

I'm planning to shoot using EX1 for wedding event. But someone told me if we shoot at the same time the photographer fire a photography flash, our footage will have a problem. Kind of like a white bar across the horizontally.

Does anyone ever have a problem on their footage shot with EX1 when there was a photography flash??

Thanks

Eric Pascarelli · July 2nd, 2008, 05:23 AM

There's a lot on the forum about this. Try searching for "partial exposure"

Some consider it a bigger problem then others, but there is definitely an issue, as there is with any CMOS "rolling shutter" camera.

Steven Davis · July 2nd, 2008, 06:51 AM

Yep, it happens with my Sony V1us, but I'm one of those that doesn't see it as a big deal, obviously in the case of a strobes such as a dance floor, it could be an issue.

Craig Seeman · July 2nd, 2008, 08:25 AM

That "rolling shutter" split screen is most likely to happen when the flash fills the major portion of the frame. I certainly got no rolling shutter from shooting fireworks and the occasional photographer's flash near by had no impact since it wasn't filling the frame.

While it certainly will look different than video from a CCD camera, different is not necessarily "worse."

Mike Williams · July 2nd, 2008, 08:30 AM

What sort of disaster are you speaking of? What cam did you use before? In my experience is that the cam handles it the same as the VX2000, the Z1U and the A1U. The JVC cams seem to do the same thing as well as the Cannon if I'm not mistaken.

All of my freelance people use different gear and this issue is there in almost all of the cams they use. Some to a lesser degree ( maybe SD cams less?).

If you are going to use major slo-mo all the time then it may get a little wierd but you could also cherry pick the shots that don't have the flash in it..... if possible.

Hope this helps

Kevin Wayne Jones · July 2nd, 2008, 08:41 AM

I recently shot a reception for a local judge. There was a still photographer wandering around the room flashing throughout the duration of the event. No problem for me at all. The video looked fine.
Shooting 1080 60i.

kj

Tim Polster · July 2nd, 2008, 08:55 AM

My only fear about this issue is if the half exposure catches your eye as it goes by.

Flahes never make a scene look nice, but if they are uniform, there is not much to focus on.

If a bar of white or at least highlights goes by, it might jump out and look like a video error.

Can you owners of EX's give some more input on this?

I am looking at a possible purchase and do a lot of live event shooting where,

- people are in the crowd and shoot flashes at the stage
- lighting effects from the show are sometimes flashy
- there is a photog present and shooting with me

If it helps, I will probably be shooting in 720p60.

This is the main hangup for me to consider this camera for purchase because I will probably want more than one, and I would like to be able to use it for any job.

Thanks for more input on this topic which is difficult to test before using it on a gig.

Sean Seah · July 2nd, 2008, 08:56 AM

Shot 2 weddings n I have seen the prob several times but no one complains cuz it happens so fast. Half the screen has a flash/washed out look while the other is ok for spilt sec.

George Kroonder · July 2nd, 2008, 09:13 AM

You can have partial exposure with (fast) photography flashes or muzzle fire. You can reduce the 'problem' by not using the shutter (shutter off). High shutter speeds will make this more apparent. Use ND's and stop down instead.

In real life this is rarely a problem and you can fix photo flashes in post by just blowing out the frame.

George/

Andy Wilkinson · July 2nd, 2008, 09:53 AM

Sorry to be a bit of a pain but has n't this all been discussed to death so many times before on here as pointed out early in this thread. I love DVinfo for it's fantastic depth of experience and information but would hate to have to wade through lots of superflous repetitive info in order to get to "all the good stuff".

I'm not saying this issue is unimportant, as it clearly is to some but my suggestion would be we don't create yet another huge long thread about something that was only discussed a few weeks ago (and no doubt countless times before that.....)

As always, the search tool is everyone's friend and if used wisely can help prevent all this repetition. What I did when I moderated on another Forum (and just so it's clear, I'm not a Mod on here) was create a Sticky on how to use the search functions and this was at the top of every forum section. In truth, the search function on these Forums is not perfect but is very easy to use and can typically get you the answers you want (assuming someone has posted about the topic before) literally in seconds. If it's not already covered, then sure, post away for peoples inputs that we can then all learn from as that is the spirit of forums such as this great one.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular in this thread (believe me, honestly!), just wishing this place to remain the best there is.

Tim Polster · July 2nd, 2008, 10:18 AM

Andy,

Your point is well taken, but the thread has a title and one can skip it if it too repetitive.

I have been researching this camera since it was announced and have read all of the threads I can find on this topic, and it still seems unanswered to me.

Some folks say it is a non-issue and it does not come up in real world shooting or just add a frame of white.

Others say it can be seen but the clients don't complain or notice it.

Then I watch some footage and it looks obvious to me, (especially the police car footage).

So input from as many users as possible would still help me make a decision about this camera as I often am running a camera where flashes are going off.

Giroud Francois · July 2nd, 2008, 10:48 AM

there are 2 shools. the ones who do not care about tweaking one frame or two, because they do a lot of work on the picture anyway. and they are too happy to get HD at so low price.
The other ones who do not expect to spend over $6000 and be forced to manually clean frames on a two hours wedding , because it is just fixing something that should not be broken at first.
I go a FX1 because it is the last one to get CCD instead CMOS. I do a lot of event and i feel not ready to go CMOS unless somebody creates a plugin to clean such frames easily.

John Woo · July 2nd, 2008, 11:53 AM

I have shot 6 or 7 weddings w EX1 so far. The partial flash exposure is there, but effect can be lessen with shutter off. The work around is to apply a white frame with 60 to 70% opaque over the affected area. This effectively make the partial exposure looks like a full exposure. Will take up some of our precious time though.

Neverthless, a flash is a flash, be it half or fully lit. Video doesn't like flash anyway.

Adam Reuter · July 2nd, 2008, 12:29 PM

Check out this video: http://www.vimeo.com/1243446

At around 3:11 you can see the effect. At first it bothered me and now that I've seen enough Access Hollywood video shot with CMOS cameras I am used to the effect. And as other's have said if it really bothers you you can edit in an opaque half frame to fill the screen like a CCD camera.

This camera is the best right now in low light, lowest noise, depth of field, colors and clarity compared to all other sub $10,000 cameras out there. To me it is THE HD wedding/event camcorder and I wouldn't let this one thing keep you from using the best.

And yes, please do use the search bar for "rolling shutter" issues.

Tim Polster · July 2nd, 2008, 02:40 PM

Thanks for posting this Adam,

Inside it really looks like a non-issue. With the amount of light in the room, the half exposed frames do not have as much contrast to really catch your eye.

Now outside at night (the sparkler footage) it really is showing up to me.

I have to say in realtime the video does look like it has some sort of playback issue.

So very low ambient light conditions seem to make this appear more.

This is not good for concert or event work ambient lights are low or turned off.

Thanks again!

July 2nd, 2008, 05:17 AM	#1
Desmond Sukotjo Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 88	Sony PMW-EX1 + Photographer's Flash = Disaster?? Greeting. I'm planning to shoot using EX1 for wedding event. But someone told me if we shoot at the same time the photographer fire a photography flash, our footage will have a problem. Kind of like a white bar across the horizontally. Does anyone ever have a problem on their footage shot with EX1 when there was a photography flash?? Thanks

July 2nd, 2008, 06:51 AM	#3
Steven Davis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,065	Yes Yep, it happens with my Sony V1us, but I'm one of those that doesn't see it as a big deal, obviously in the case of a strobes such as a dance floor, it could be an issue. __________________ What happens if I push the 'Red' button?

July 2nd, 2008, 08:30 AM	#5
Mike Williams Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USVI Posts: 232	Compared to what? What sort of disaster are you speaking of? What cam did you use before? In my experience is that the cam handles it the same as the VX2000, the Z1U and the A1U. The JVC cams seem to do the same thing as well as the Cannon if I'm not mistaken. All of my freelance people use different gear and this issue is there in almost all of the cams they use. Some to a lesser degree ( maybe SD cams less?). If you are going to use major slo-mo all the time then it may get a little wierd but you could also cherry pick the shots that don't have the flash in it..... if possible. Hope this helps

July 2nd, 2008, 08:55 AM	#7
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	My only fear about this issue is if the half exposure catches your eye as it goes by. Flahes never make a scene look nice, but if they are uniform, there is not much to focus on. If a bar of white or at least highlights goes by, it might jump out and look like a video error. Can you owners of EX's give some more input on this? I am looking at a possible purchase and do a lot of live event shooting where, - people are in the crowd and shoot flashes at the stage - lighting effects from the show are sometimes flashy - there is a photog present and shooting with me If it helps, I will probably be shooting in 720p60. This is the main hangup for me to consider this camera for purchase because I will probably want more than one, and I would like to be able to use it for any job. Thanks for more input on this topic which is difficult to test before using it on a gig. Last edited by Tim Polster; July 2nd, 2008 at 10:05 AM.

July 2nd, 2008, 09:53 AM	#10
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Sorry to be a bit of a pain but has n't this all been discussed to death so many times before on here as pointed out early in this thread. I love DVinfo for it's fantastic depth of experience and information but would hate to have to wade through lots of superflous repetitive info in order to get to "all the good stuff". I'm not saying this issue is unimportant, as it clearly is to some but my suggestion would be we don't create yet another huge long thread about something that was only discussed a few weeks ago (and no doubt countless times before that.....) As always, the search tool is everyone's friend and if used wisely can help prevent all this repetition. What I did when I moderated on another Forum (and just so it's clear, I'm not a Mod on here) was create a Sticky on how to use the search functions and this was at the top of every forum section. In truth, the search function on these Forums is not perfect but is very easy to use and can typically get you the answers you want (assuming someone has posted about the topic before) literally in seconds. If it's not already covered, then sure, post away for peoples inputs that we can then all learn from as that is the spirit of forums such as this great one. I'm not having a go at anyone in particular in this thread (believe me, honestly!), just wishing this place to remain the best there is. __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

July 2nd, 2008, 05:23 AM	#2
Eric Pascarelli Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 498	There's a lot on the forum about this. Try searching for "partial exposure" Some consider it a bigger problem then others, but there is definitely an issue, as there is with any CMOS "rolling shutter" camera.

July 2nd, 2008, 08:25 AM	#4
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	That "rolling shutter" split screen is most likely to happen when the flash fills the major portion of the frame. I certainly got no rolling shutter from shooting fireworks and the occasional photographer's flash near by had no impact since it wasn't filling the frame. While it certainly will look different than video from a CCD camera, different is not necessarily "worse."

July 2nd, 2008, 08:41 AM	#6
Kevin Wayne Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Tuscaloosa, Alabama Posts: 69	I recently shot a reception for a local judge. There was a still photographer wandering around the room flashing throughout the duration of the event. No problem for me at all. The video looked fine. Shooting 1080 60i. kj

July 2nd, 2008, 08:56 AM	#8
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	Shot 2 weddings n I have seen the prob several times but no one complains cuz it happens so fast. Half the screen has a flash/washed out look while the other is ok for spilt sec.

July 2nd, 2008, 09:13 AM	#9
George Kroonder Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Utrecht, NL \| Europe 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 612	You can have partial exposure with (fast) photography flashes or muzzle fire. You can reduce the 'problem' by not using the shutter (shutter off). High shutter speeds will make this more apparent. Use ND's and stop down instead. In real life this is rarely a problem and you can fix photo flashes in post by just blowing out the frame. George/

July 2nd, 2008, 10:18 AM	#11
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Andy, Your point is well taken, but the thread has a title and one can skip it if it too repetitive. I have been researching this camera since it was announced and have read all of the threads I can find on this topic, and it still seems unanswered to me. Some folks say it is a non-issue and it does not come up in real world shooting or just add a frame of white. Others say it can be seen but the clients don't complain or notice it. Then I watch some footage and it looks obvious to me, (especially the police car footage). So input from as many users as possible would still help me make a decision about this camera as I often am running a camera where flashes are going off.

July 2nd, 2008, 10:48 AM	#12
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	there are 2 shools. the ones who do not care about tweaking one frame or two, because they do a lot of work on the picture anyway. and they are too happy to get HD at so low price. The other ones who do not expect to spend over $6000 and be forced to manually clean frames on a two hours wedding , because it is just fixing something that should not be broken at first. I go a FX1 because it is the last one to get CCD instead CMOS. I do a lot of event and i feel not ready to go CMOS unless somebody creates a plugin to clean such frames easily.

July 2nd, 2008, 11:53 AM	#13
John Woo Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 160	I have shot 6 or 7 weddings w EX1 so far. The partial flash exposure is there, but effect can be lessen with shutter off. The work around is to apply a white frame with 60 to 70% opaque over the affected area. This effectively make the partial exposure looks like a full exposure. Will take up some of our precious time though. Neverthless, a flash is a flash, be it half or fully lit. Video doesn't like flash anyway.

July 2nd, 2008, 12:29 PM	#14
Adam Reuter Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 234	Check out this video: http://www.vimeo.com/1243446 At around 3:11 you can see the effect. At first it bothered me and now that I've seen enough Access Hollywood video shot with CMOS cameras I am used to the effect. And as other's have said if it really bothers you you can edit in an opaque half frame to fill the screen like a CCD camera. This camera is the best right now in low light, lowest noise, depth of field, colors and clarity compared to all other sub $10,000 cameras out there. To me it is THE HD wedding/event camcorder and I wouldn't let this one thing keep you from using the best. And yes, please do use the search bar for "rolling shutter" issues.

July 2nd, 2008, 02:40 PM	#15
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Thanks for posting this Adam, Inside it really looks like a non-issue. With the amount of light in the room, the half exposed frames do not have as much contrast to really catch your eye. Now outside at night (the sparkler footage) it really is showing up to me. I have to say in realtime the video does look like it has some sort of playback issue. So very low ambient light conditions seem to make this appear more. This is not good for concert or event work ambient lights are low or turned off. Thanks again!