Rolling Shutter, has it affected you?

Tim Polster · May 19th, 2008, 12:34 PM

Well this is the problem.

We as freelance videographers and business owners do not always get to choose the surroundings in which we have to operate a camera.

My main point of this post is to try and surmise if the issues are showstoppers are quick, non-attention drawing blips.

When I test the camera at a shop, it is hard to recreate live events ect...

This is a tough position.

Alister Chapman · May 19th, 2008, 12:35 PM

Myself and Steve Connor shot an airshow at the weekend with an EX1 and an F350. I just been checking through my 60fps EX1 shots of Spitfires and the Eurofighter Typhoon and I can't see any issues. Even when following the Eurofighter with ground rushing through the shot the motion looks normal to me.

I'll post some examples from both cameras on my server tomorrow.

Steve Phillipps · May 19th, 2008, 12:37 PM

Showstoppers for me! Go into a shop, put the camera on a tripod in 1080/25P and pan fairly fast back and forth and you'll see the effect in the LCD. Put a Z7 on a tripod in 1080/25P and it'll be different. If you do, let us know if I'm right - I'm prepared to be wrong, but fairly confident!
Steve

Jason Bodnar · May 19th, 2008, 01:24 PM

"What would everybody say about filming live sporting events with the EX-1?

Tim, I just got back from filming a bunch of Motocross racing and the footage is spectacular...Especially the 60p slow mo shots. I performed some quick pans both on tripod and handheld with no issues. I shot 1080p and 720 24p overcranked to 60p.

Alister Chapman · May 19th, 2008, 01:36 PM

Steve, I think everyone understands that you don't like the way the EX1 looks. Let me post some clips so that others can make their own judgement.

Using the built in LCD to make picture quality judgments is not clever. The EX1 LCD is known to have flicker of it's own, most visible when shooting in bright sunlight. To judge the true quality of an image you need a known reference monitor that can accurately and correctly display the images you want to compare. You should display all your comparative material on that same known reference monitor at the same time, under the same conditions. To suggest going into a shop and spraying cameras around with fast pans at 25p and then to say one is better than the other on the basis of images displayed on 2 totally different LCD's with different characteristics is nonsense. Why do you feel the Z7 will be so different? they both use CMOS sensors with the same Exmor technology.

Steve Phillipps · May 19th, 2008, 01:51 PM

Sorry Alister, I thought the Z7 was CCD, my mistake. OK so try it with a JVC200 then. I can clearly see a very disturbing effect on pans on the LCD.
You may have a point about the LCD screen too, though I'm not trying to judge picture quality, just the motion artefacts. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to view it on HD monitor or in edit suite at the moment, and I know that would be preferable. But I noticed this issue independently of reading anything about it, then looked into it and found that it wasn't just my imagination.
I am a bit perplexed by the whole thing, and would love to be wrong, but what I saw was very worrying for the sort of work I do. I haven't tried a Z7, but I know that doing the same shots on an HPX2100 did not produce results like that at all, they were totally as I would expect them to be.
Steve

Steve Connor · May 19th, 2008, 02:07 PM

Lets see what Alister manages to post shortly, following a Eurofighter Typhoon at 300 miles an hour should produce the effect Steve is talking about shouldn't it?

Steve Phillipps · May 19th, 2008, 02:36 PM

Definitely, as long as it's got some background. Can I add that it's not true to say that I don't like the images from the EX as Alister suggests, I do. In fact I would even go so as to say that I thought single frame grabs that I took were possibly the best I'd seen from ANY video camera, bar none, well up there anyway.
Just look at the "owrst case scenario" tests that have been done, though, and no-one can deny that there's a noteworthy issue at the least and a fatal flaw for some. Have you seen the helicopter hot in Barry Green's article?
Steve

Steve Connor · May 19th, 2008, 02:46 PM

The shots should have good amount of cloud background as well as the grass airfield in frame also.

I prefer to judge things from my own experience, not other peoples "articles"

Tim Polster · May 19th, 2008, 03:04 PM

Thanks for your replies so far.

I am looking forward to seeing the footage.

This issue is important to us all, so maybe we can get to the bottom of it with this thread.

Gabe Strong · May 19th, 2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Connor

The shots should have good amount of cloud background as well as the grass airfield in frame also.

I prefer to judge things from my own experience, not other peoples "articles"

I agree 10,000,000%.

Steven Thomas · May 19th, 2008, 03:11 PM

No, it's an issue...
It's just that it's real old news for many EX1 owners.
Hence, minimal replies.

Again, there's cameras that cost 3X the EX1 that have the same problem and they are used in highend production.

By the way, Barry Green (who wrote the article you referenced) also owns the RED ONE which has the same issues, but a tad less than the EX1.

Piotr Wozniacki · May 19th, 2008, 03:18 PM

This is a very interesting discussion, and I thought I'd drop my $0.03 in - totally agree with Alister; in real life situations / shooting scenarios, I never ONCE came across results that would be unacceptable because of the rolling shutter nature of the EX1 sensors. Also, the other "problem" so often discussed - the motion stuttering in 24/25p modes being allegedly more pronounced with the EX1 than with other comparable cameras - has never been any of a problem to me, ever since I learned my camera movements must be really slow (or the subject followed, with background deliberately blurred with the help of correct shutter speed and/or controlled DOF).

Paul Joy · May 20th, 2008, 02:31 AM

I posted that footage when I got my first EX1 last November, the shot was set up to show if the the rolling shutter 'skew' effect existed in the EX1 which was one of the first to be sold.

I can honestly say that since then I have never encountered it again, maybe it's just the way I shoot, fast pans like that for me are very rare, and when you do perform them the chance of seeing the effect on background imagery is quite slim. Any pans when shooting in 24/25p require slow movement to avoid juddering (strobing) anyway.

Paul.

John Woo · May 20th, 2008, 02:54 AM

I have owned an EX1 since Feb and so far done a few events and wedding. Overall I am quite satisfied but not so on the handling. I always have sored thumb after holding it for a full day. The rolling shutter has not been an issue also except for the partial flash exposure which can be easily corrected by overlayed a 50% opaque white frame. Although this is easily done, but takes another 10-15 minutes of my time especially when rushing to complete the morning montage.

May 19th, 2008, 12:35 PM	#17
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Myself and Steve Connor shot an airshow at the weekend with an EX1 and an F350. I just been checking through my 60fps EX1 shots of Spitfires and the Eurofighter Typhoon and I can't see any issues. Even when following the Eurofighter with ground rushing through the shot the motion looks normal to me. I'll post some examples from both cameras on my server tomorrow. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

May 19th, 2008, 01:36 PM	#20
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Steve, I think everyone understands that you don't like the way the EX1 looks. Let me post some clips so that others can make their own judgement. Using the built in LCD to make picture quality judgments is not clever. The EX1 LCD is known to have flicker of it's own, most visible when shooting in bright sunlight. To judge the true quality of an image you need a known reference monitor that can accurately and correctly display the images you want to compare. You should display all your comparative material on that same known reference monitor at the same time, under the same conditions. To suggest going into a shop and spraying cameras around with fast pans at 25p and then to say one is better than the other on the basis of images displayed on 2 totally different LCD's with different characteristics is nonsense. Why do you feel the Z7 will be so different? they both use CMOS sensors with the same Exmor technology. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

May 19th, 2008, 03:11 PM	#27
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	No, it's an issue... It's just that it's real old news for many EX1 owners. Hence, minimal replies. Again, there's cameras that cost 3X the EX1 that have the same problem and they are used in highend production. By the way, Barry Green (who wrote the article you referenced) also owns the RED ONE which has the same issues, but a tad less than the EX1. Last edited by Steven Thomas; May 20th, 2008 at 05:59 AM.

May 19th, 2008, 03:18 PM	#28
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	This is a very interesting discussion, and I thought I'd drop my $0.03 in - totally agree with Alister; in real life situations / shooting scenarios, I never ONCE came across results that would be unacceptable because of the rolling shutter nature of the EX1 sensors. Also, the other "problem" so often discussed - the motion stuttering in 24/25p modes being allegedly more pronounced with the EX1 than with other comparable cameras - has never been any of a problem to me, ever since I learned my camera movements must be really slow (or the subject followed, with background deliberately blurred with the help of correct shutter speed and/or controlled DOF). __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

May 20th, 2008, 02:31 AM	#29
Paul Joy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 627	I posted that footage when I got my first EX1 last November, the shot was set up to show if the the rolling shutter 'skew' effect existed in the EX1 which was one of the first to be sold. I can honestly say that since then I have never encountered it again, maybe it's just the way I shoot, fast pans like that for me are very rare, and when you do perform them the chance of seeing the effect on background imagery is quite slim. Any pans when shooting in 24/25p require slow movement to avoid juddering (strobing) anyway. Paul. __________________ Blog: www.pauljoy.com Company: www.videotrader.co.uk

May 19th, 2008, 12:34 PM	#16
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Well this is the problem. We as freelance videographers and business owners do not always get to choose the surroundings in which we have to operate a camera. My main point of this post is to try and surmise if the issues are showstoppers are quick, non-attention drawing blips. When I test the camera at a shop, it is hard to recreate live events ect... This is a tough position.

May 19th, 2008, 12:37 PM	#18
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Showstoppers for me! Go into a shop, put the camera on a tripod in 1080/25P and pan fairly fast back and forth and you'll see the effect in the LCD. Put a Z7 on a tripod in 1080/25P and it'll be different. If you do, let us know if I'm right - I'm prepared to be wrong, but fairly confident! Steve

May 19th, 2008, 01:24 PM	#19
Jason Bodnar Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 376	"What would everybody say about filming live sporting events with the EX-1? Tim, I just got back from filming a bunch of Motocross racing and the footage is spectacular...Especially the 60p slow mo shots. I performed some quick pans both on tripod and handheld with no issues. I shot 1080p and 720 24p overcranked to 60p.

May 19th, 2008, 01:51 PM	#21
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Sorry Alister, I thought the Z7 was CCD, my mistake. OK so try it with a JVC200 then. I can clearly see a very disturbing effect on pans on the LCD. You may have a point about the LCD screen too, though I'm not trying to judge picture quality, just the motion artefacts. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to view it on HD monitor or in edit suite at the moment, and I know that would be preferable. But I noticed this issue independently of reading anything about it, then looked into it and found that it wasn't just my imagination. I am a bit perplexed by the whole thing, and would love to be wrong, but what I saw was very worrying for the sort of work I do. I haven't tried a Z7, but I know that doing the same shots on an HPX2100 did not produce results like that at all, they were totally as I would expect them to be. Steve

May 19th, 2008, 02:07 PM	#22
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	Lets see what Alister manages to post shortly, following a Eurofighter Typhoon at 300 miles an hour should produce the effect Steve is talking about shouldn't it?

May 19th, 2008, 02:36 PM	#23
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Definitely, as long as it's got some background. Can I add that it's not true to say that I don't like the images from the EX as Alister suggests, I do. In fact I would even go so as to say that I thought single frame grabs that I took were possibly the best I'd seen from ANY video camera, bar none, well up there anyway. Just look at the "owrst case scenario" tests that have been done, though, and no-one can deny that there's a noteworthy issue at the least and a fatal flaw for some. Have you seen the helicopter hot in Barry Green's article? Steve

May 19th, 2008, 02:46 PM	#24
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 383	The shots should have good amount of cloud background as well as the grass airfield in frame also. I prefer to judge things from my own experience, not other peoples "articles"

May 19th, 2008, 03:04 PM	#25
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Thanks for your replies so far. I am looking forward to seeing the footage. This issue is important to us all, so maybe we can get to the bottom of it with this thread.

May 20th, 2008, 02:54 AM	#30
John Woo Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 160	I have owned an EX1 since Feb and so far done a few events and wedding. Overall I am quite satisfied but not so on the handling. I always have sored thumb after holding it for a full day. The rolling shutter has not been an issue also except for the partial flash exposure which can be easily corrected by overlayed a 50% opaque white frame. Although this is easily done, but takes another 10-15 minutes of my time especially when rushing to complete the morning montage.