Strobing / flicker effect when panning in 24p

[Mike Stevens]

Originally Posted by Dennis Joseph

Do most of you play back your footage on a big screen HD tv?

Some things that may come into play as far as why there is flicker can be the actual television signal being that it is 3:2 pulldown... streaming it through component cable which is not true 1080p.

Just a couple of things that may be a factor.

Has anyone converted their xdcam files into film? If so, what was the outcome?

I have output to Bluray disk and played from Sony Bluray player via HDMI with SAME effect. This si not a playback issue.

[Eric Pascarelli]

Originally Posted by Mark Jones

Then I wonder what settings are making my same movements that I make with the V1U look so bad with the EX1.

Can you post footage from both? If possible, attach the cameras together on the same pan head (use tape?), set the lenses for the same field of view, put them at the same frame rate and shutter, and do some pans.

[Paul Curtis]

I couldn't download the samples so im not sure what we're all looking at. Are there any more examples?

I've not found anything disagreeable or unexpected in any of the footage we've shot.

Im on 25p, so is this something specific with 24p only?

cheers
paul

[James Garcia]

I am getting a strobing effect while panning on the EX-1. Is this normal? I am shooting 1080i shutter speed on at 60. I see the strobing effect while viewing in the browser software and in Vegas pro 8. Will this continue once rendered in final form to DVD? Please Help......

[Serena Steuart]

Your browser interface and NLE may not preview at full speed (you can see in Vegas Pro 8 what is the actual playback speed). To check for your self, render a portion to avi and playback in your favourite player. I've not experienced any problems of unexpected strobing or unsteadiness.

[Robert St-Onge]

I have been reading this entire thread and I can confirm that this camera as a judder problem. I was all excited getting this camera and being able to shoot in 24p, what a deception. I had better results with my PD170 shooting at 29.97 interlaced then converting it to 24p in Vegas 8. Even better than the EX1 at 30p. I could do some fast pans, actions shots, it looked like film with my Letus adapter. The only trade off would be a slight doubling only on very fast motion area, but it doesn't make you dizzy at all. Had no restriction when shooting!

I also have color problems and thinking about returning it.

[Eric Pascarelli]

Originally Posted by Robert St-Onge

I had better results with my PD170 shooting at 29.97 interlaced then converting it to 24p in Vegas 8. Even better than the EX1 at 30p. I could do some fast pans, actions shots, it looked like film with my Letus adapter.

This is a fundamentally different thing. You can't compare post processed 60i to 24p because the time sampling is completely different.

These judder threads are getting out of hand in my opinion. No one has presented a side-by-side showing that the EX1 is any different from any other 24p camera.

There's really not enough conceptual complexity to motion picture photography for there to be such stark differences in the way cameras record motion.

[Serena Steuart]

Originally Posted by Eric Pascarelli

This is a fundamentally different thing. You can't compare post processed 60i to 24p because the time sampling is completely different.

These judder threads are getting out of hand in my opinion. No one has presented a side-by-side showing that the EX1 is any different from any other 24p camera.

There's really not enough conceptual complexity to motion picture photography for there to be such stark differences in the way cameras record motion.

Agree. It seems to me that 24 fps is 24 fps whatever you shoot with. What differences are there between shooting 24P with video compared to film? Rolling shutter compared to global shutter. Is the rolling shutter a problem in pans? Not that I can find. So is the camera not recording progressive images? Looks OK to me. Seems to me that people used to shooting 60i are adopting 24P without changing their techniques. I note that Phil Bloom has set up a film competition to encourage us all to get out and make films.

[Dennis Joseph]

Originally Posted by Serena Steuart

Agree. It seems to me that 24 fps is 24 fps whatever you shoot with. What differences are there between shooting 24P with video compared to film? Rolling shutter compared to global shutter. Is the rolling shutter a problem in pans? Not that I can find. So is the camera not recording progressive images? Looks OK to me. Seems to me that people used to shooting 60i are adopting 24P without changing their techniques. I note that Phil Bloom has set up a film competition to encourage us all to get out and make films.

I disagree. I was watching The Bourne ultimatum (Shot on Arri Film Camera) and even the most shakey scenes were smoothe with no judder. There was not 1 instance that replicated the problem that the ex-1 has. The 24p that this HD camera does and the ones I have seen shot on film is totally different.

You can either choose to believe that there is no difference or come to the realization that there is a reason that the cameras they use on those kinds of movies cost over 200k

[Serena Steuart]

Originally Posted by Dennis Joseph

I disagree. The 24p that this HD camera does and the ones I have seen shot on film is totally different.

You can either choose to believe that there is no difference or come to the realization that there is a reason that the cameras they use on those kinds of movies cost over 200k

I can't see any point to that comparison. Film cameras are expensive for good reasons (as are high end video cameras), but looking at your own material shot with the EX1 and some professional feature film tells you nothing. You don't actually know the shooting frame rate nor the post production processes. To get to basics, shooting at 24 fps a film camera exposes one frame at a time, 24 times a second. So, I'm told, does the EX. Now you explain the difference in technical terms rather than by hand-waving assertion.

[Robert St-Onge]

Originally Posted by Serena Steuart

Is the rolling shutter a problem in pans? Not that I can find.

Moderate to fast pans will make any vertical lines oblique, like a door frame.

[Robert St-Onge]

Originally Posted by Eric Pascarelli

You can't compare post processed 60i to 24p because the time sampling is completely different.
There's really not enough conceptual complexity to motion picture photography for there to be such stark differences in the way cameras record motion.

All I can say is that the end result is what matters to me, so what I shot with my PD170 at 60i with fast pans, hanld held shots converted to 24p look much more like film motion than my EX1 at 24p where I am much more limited as far as pans and moves. Even at 1080 60i 1/60 the camera smears more than what I have been used to.

Also, 24fps film involves a mechanical process where 24p video involves an electronic process where compression is applied, I believe that they are very different processes resulting in a different feel.

The best results I got was when I shot at 720 60p and converting to 24p, but I only did one shoot this way, because my camera has audio glitches when shooting at that mode. Sony Japan is on the case. But that was real life action, shooting in a moving bus, travellings..., just like I have been doing for 20 years....only had to worry about not panning too fast in order to avoid vertical lines being oblique.

[Serena Steuart]

Originally Posted by Robert St-Onge

Moderate to fast pans will make any vertical lines oblique, like a door frame.

Yes, that's the characteristic to be expected.

[Steven Thomas]

24 progressive frames per second is 24 frames per second. Throw the footage onto your time line and count them. They're there.

I find it amusing that this thread continues especially based on someones first post here and mentioning returning the EX1 for this imaginary issue.

[Robert St-Onge]

Just an update, last october (I had completely forgotten about it) I was given a JVC HD250 with 18x4.2 BRM-M48 Fujinon to test. I just pulled out the shots, the difference is clear. Yes, it judders but not like the EX1 but like film motion. It is much more subtle. It didn't even bother me then, why would on day one, at 24p, my EX1 had judders that where very distracting. And what bothered me most at that time was that the JVC HD250 was not a great low light camera but good for 24p.

Could there be a batch of EX1 that a more subject to judders?